morality of suicide

mario_ragucci · Jan 21, 2002

I might as well chime in on this. Killing yourself harms others, meaning, people that love you, and to an extent, the other humans that find your body, and think of why you did that to rule out murder. If you get down the pipe to the point you realize no one loves/cares for you, suicide is up to YOU then. It's easy to justify killing yourself. People come and go everyday. :rolleyes:

What I don't understand as well are the folks who say they "tried" to commit suicide. Does that really mean you wanted to be absolutely reckless, but planned on surviving? Honestly; How can you intend to kill yourself and fail (unless you really didn't want to) (?)

It's the folks who want to take others with them, like you hear on the news when someone shoots a lover/boss, and then shoots themselves. Kamakaski's.

But a patient who wants to die for any reason? Didn't Paul MaCarney say "Live and let die";)

You may be able to sense some peoples lives are negative to themselves (others) and they never smile. Being mysterous is what can make people so interesting. :confused:

It's society that makes suicide a shameful thing. I feel sad every time I hear of one, but quickly develop indifferent feelings, so I don't get confused. Can go on and on :cool: :confused:

PhantomRN · Jan 21, 2002

I have been on the other side as well. I have been down the road where the only solution I saw was suicide. I did not consider it a selfish act, as I convinced myself everyone would be better off with out me around bringing them down. Obviously, I didn't commit the act, nor did I ever try.

The one thing that always stopped me was my belief that I would be punished from GOD for taking my life. So to me ening my life would only have ended my mortal pain my spiritual pain would have just begun.

mustangsheba · Jan 21, 2002

As you all know, I'm a died-in-the-wool Oregonian. If some out there are not aware, we voted twice on the Right-to-die law - which is now called "Physician's assisted" - an unfortunate title, in my opinion. The goal of this is to give people a CHOICE. The greatest fear of the terminally ill is that they will suffer unbearably. I have borne witness to deaths in which the family and patient were begging for the end to come to stop the suffering. Suicide is a personal decision. It may appear selfish to onlookers, but that is a judgement with which I'm uncomfortable. We need to walk in those moccasins a couple of miles.

cmggriff · Jan 23, 2002

Whose life is it? Is it my life or do I belong to the community? Do I owe my family and friends my life? Must I continue to live under circumstances I find abhorent because my death may cause others pain? If I leap between a gunman and his intended target

to stop a bullet, I have committed suicide. Yet many would call me a hero. But if I chose to swim out into the ocean as far as I can go, I'm selfish, immoral and bound for hell.

So is it my life or not?

Nittlebug · Jan 23, 2002

I don't have a moral objection to suicide and I don't believe anyone who commits suicide is going to a hot scary place with demons and devils. I am compassionate to those who suffer from depression. We've all been depressed, and I can't imagine feeling depressed every day of my life for weeks or months. I would probably want to die too.

I think we should help those who are depressed whether they want it or not. Many people get better and no longer want to die.

But I also believe it's an individuals decision when it comes to assisted suicide. If live sucks so bad that you don't want to be in this world. You should be allowed to leave it in your own way. And no one should make you feel guilty about it.

Norbert Holz · Jan 23, 2002

Suicide is NEVER DONE WITHOUT A REASON! The reason for the man could have been: harassment by the courts in a child support case, loss of his children in divorce, harasssment by his spouse, diagnosis of a terminal illness and a host of other reasons.

The leading cause of death for "middle aged" men is suicide. Men are being discarded by society in todays world like never before in history. They have become a selectively persecuted class!

Routinely they loose thier children, homes, jobs, future income, assets - just about anything they have through a divorce. The woman files because she feels that they are not as close as they once were. The romance is not there as it once was. They have "grown apart." Quite frankly - any old excuse will do!

After loosing everything - they are ordered to be, at best, "visitors" in the lives of thier children while paying upwards of 25% of thier gross income to the state who then may or may not give it to the child's mother who then may or may not spend it on the child or children.

No fault divorce has caused a great shift in the very fabric of america. Children are growing up without the most fragile and necessary element of the family - thier FATHERS!

Most people do not realize the injustice being done to countless men throught america daily. The constitutional rights of american men and children are not upheld any more. A criminal has more rights than a father in a divorce.

I have been there and are still here! I lost my daughter! I lost my son! I was ordered to pay sums that I could not afford to the state! I lost jobs because I was so stressed by legal harassment by the state and from the abuse by the mother to me and my daughter.

Quite often I sit idlely here at my lonely shack wondering if God would grant me heaven if I was to go!

If you were to find out some facts in this case I'd bet that there was a constelation of factors contributing to this death. Please look a little deeper and share your findings here.

Here are some references to support this position:

http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?id=29694&StoryType=ReutersNews

http://www.glennjsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/news/2001/04/19/FFXFG6UYNLC.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/state/2001/08/04/FFXEX9OUWPC.html

http://www.cihi.ca/medrls/28nov2001.shtml

zumalong · Jan 23, 2002

Norbert, I feel your pain and wish that I could do something to help you. I lost 2 brothers to suicide due to such deep depression that they saw no other way out. Are you on any meds or seeing someone to talk to.

I can't imagine what it feels like to be that deep down in the hole, but I have seen what it leaves for the family and the children. I have 2 nieces and 1 nephew that will never know their fathers.

Nurses are not very supportive when it comes to sucide and depression--I know I was "allowed" a few weeks to work out my grieving. (it will never be worked out). Please find someone you can talk to who is there to listen and not judge. Your job should have an EAP that you can turn to for some help. Or call a crisis hotline.

Take care

Cheryl Long

Norbert Holz · Jan 23, 2002

There is no help avaliable.

I have lost all the jobs I've had due to the stress! No EAP here! They fired me!

I tried to get help from the domestic violence center here. Services do not exsist for men (because men are abusers only)! They told me to call an individual threapist. He told me that counciling services are avaliable for a mere $60.00 an hour.

I've tried to utilize vocational rehabilitation for over a year. The "plan" we agreed upon failed to materialize when the second vocational rehabilitation counseler retired. The new wants me to just go out and get a job.

I was enrolled in a University of South Florida program to become a systems analyst. During my first class the daughters mother called me continually harassing me to pay child support. I was paid ahead and deeply in debt (over 25K) because I paid fully and bought my daughter food, cloths, toys, and everything else she needed.

She thretened to move to New York with my daughter! She thretened me to cut off all visitation with my daughter! She was and is clearly abusing me and my daughter! I called the Department of Children Youth and Families, who said that there was nothing wrong.

Thanks for your kinds words. Please believe me - MEN ARE NOT THE ENEMY! We are just as volnerable as women.

mario_ragucci · Jan 23, 2002

Many parts of America are sexist till this day. Perhaps it's just some peoples nature to take advantage of a situation with whatever cards they possess ( a learned behavior). My sister's marriage got messed up back in the 80's, she paniced, took kid out of state, hubby got strong lawyer, got kid back, and my sisters mental health has been a wreck ever since. I would be lop-sided, too, if my home life was mixed up. Like an algebra problem, you have to put pharentases around the various equasions (in life) and remember your order of operations. The band plays on.

CATHYW · Jan 23, 2002

selfish and unselfish. I think that it all depends upon how it is done. If a person feels such physical pain (with no hope of recovery) that they wish to end their lives, then, so be it. As a healthcare provider who did my time in the ER, though, please think of those who find you, have to clean up after you, and will forever be haunted by the belief that they could've done something else to help you, because you left no note, or explanation of why you chose suicide. The method chosen can be as much an infliction of pain on the survivors as the pain the person is suffering.

My heart goes out to you, Zumalong, and especially to you, Norbert. I would suggest that you call the Hillsborough County Department of Social Services, tell them that you are extremely depressed, and unemployed, and have felt suicidal. Then, ask them to refer you to some local, taxpayer-supported agency, or a community-sponsored agency. There is likely to be one that does counseling on a fee sliding scale. These agencies are often supported by churches or the United Way or Salvation Army (another place to call first). Do you qualify for Medicaid? Please reach out to these folks, as you have reached out to us. Do not give up! Then your wife would have won, and you don't want to give her the satisfaction. I also think that the less contact you have with this woman, the better. Do you have a lawyer-perhaps the one who represented you in the divorce, that could get a legal order to keep your daughter in FL where you can visit her, and to get a restraining order against your ex-wife, so that she is not harrassing you? If you don't, there is legal aide, and again, Hillsborough County also has a bar association. I would call that number and see if there are any retired attorneys who offer reduced fee or free consults. If you are, or have been, in the military, there is always family services to consult.

You are not alone. My husband was diagnosed bipolar in September, and for most of the fall was severely depressed. As he began to come up out of it, suicide was on his mind. I hated coming to work for fear of what I might find when I got home. He sees a good psychiatrist, and takes his medications, and seems to be doing fairly well, and denies thoughts of suicide now.

I don't know if you are a person of faith, or not, but remember that Jesus said, "I will never leave you, or forsake you."

Please keep in touch with us. I want to hear how you are getting along, and I know the others will, also. If you don't hear from me for about 10-12 days, it is because I am going to FL. I don't know if I will have computer access, or not. Take care!

askater11 · Jan 23, 2002

I suffered from PPD. Two to three weeks after conceiving my second son I thought about commiting suicide. I told myself that they'd be better off without me. (my ds's and dh) Which is so UNTRUE--but the state of mind I was in--that's what I truly thought.

Looking back it's scares me to think how the human mind can work.

I was not selfish....my mind wasn't in a correct state. I went for help and I'm feeling a lot better.

To anyone that feels suicidal....please first thing to do is pick up a phone call for help.