Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions - page 6

You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other... Read More

  1. by   TELEpathicRN
    BSN nurses are no more prepared than ADN nurses. Face it, we all
    are RN's, we took the same NCLEX!!!!!!! I was appauled at the article in this issue of the AJN that was talking about ADN vs BSN. I am currently pursing my BS, in marketing, not nursing!!! I think that it will complement my nursing skills, so much opportunity for pharmacy reps, etc... and then I am going to complete my MS in nurtrition and become a Registered Dietician. Imagine the possiblilities with that? I think that we should encourage RN's to get BS degrees in such areas as Psychology, business, management, etc.... There is no more that a BSN program can teach you about nursing that an ADN program can't!!!

    P.S. We need to quit eating our young, or there will be none left!
  2. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by DJrn
    Regarding unionization, I agree with Mark25. I also am a male RN but I don't believe that gender is an issue in the same context that he does. I think that this is the glass ceiling concept in a female dominated profession. Many in society still envision a nurse as a little old lady in tennis shoes pushing food trays and bed pans. BSN as entry level for the profession will be some progress in the right direction but it is not the only answer. How we present ourselves in the work environment is also an important consideration. I'm a charge nurse and have my greatest challenge in assisting nurses with their critical thinking skills. They are resistant to taking responsibility and automatically default to calling the physician, charge nurse, supervisor, therapist, etc. They will call the physician without having all the pertinent information at their disposal and before they have attempted all the interventions at their disposal. They come off as looking incompetent to the physician. The physician then makes a negative generalization about the entire nursing staff. Taking our profession seriously is what I'm talking about. I know that I'm preaching to the choir here because the nurses that need to read this would not bother to access this web site. You guys are nurses that care about making a difference.

    As far as unionization goes, I think that it is time. The people that can help most are nurses that have progressed to administrative and management positions. But they are judged and evaluated by CEOs and CFOs. If they try to stand up for the rank and file of nurses, their jobs will be on the line. I once wrote a letter making these points to an assistant administrator in our organization who is a nurse. She took it personally and this became apparent to me when she called me on the carpet to explain myself. Nurses that make it to these upper level positions tend to forget where they came from. They become the loudest voices that are telling us we have to do more with less. If these upper level managers would stick by the staff nurses, we would not have to consider unionizing. If we want to protect the progress we've made in the last 20 years, we have to change our attitude. Nurses are willing to complain to each other about the way things are but they don't do anything tangible that will make a difference. Better pay and protecting nurse to patient ratios are the two most significant issues in my book. You know, this post is probably more appropriate for another thread, but there it is anyway.
    Am I having dreaming or did I read this somewhere else. At least the first half sure sounds familiar
  3. by   live4today
    I never knew that nurses were viewed as "little old ladies", DJrn?

    In the mid 1980's when I was in nursing school, my first nursing texbook described the average nurse as being a young white female, so I never heard what you were told about them.
  4. by   Q.
    originally posted by cheerfuldoer

    btw....what is a "nondegree nurse"?
    i think that is referring to a diploma nurse. a diploma is just that, a diploma, not a degree.
  5. by   DJrn
    I'm just saying that that image is some of the stigma that we are dealing with. Others do not see us as we see ourselves.
  6. by   Q.
    Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
    I never knew that nurses were viewed as "little old ladies", DJrn?

    I also think that stigma comes from waaaay before the 80's, during a time when women were struggling to become contributing members of society (Nightingale's time) and women who weren't married and cared for their husbands became nurses to make a living.

    Back then, nursing = single, old lady. It's in the early writings of nursing.
  7. by   whipping girl in 07
    I am in complete agreement with those who posted that the entry level for registered nursing should be the BSN. I think that the LPN/LVN should also be kept. All current RNs should be grandfathered in, and a timeframe of say, 10 years should be required to change ADN programs into BSN programs.

    Renee (Cheerfuldoer) posted that she needed 110 hours for her ASN. That is BS!! It only takes 130 hours to get a BS/BA/BSN (whatever field you chose to get a degree in). We should be angry with the AD/ASN programs that require SO MANY CREDIT HOURS for what most people see as a two year degree. Most people don't know that a "two year" nursing degree takes much longer than that. Most people don't know that a "four year" nursing degree only takes a little bit longer than a "two year" nursing degree.

    If AD/ASN programs are already making students take that many hours, it should not be that difficult to change them into BSN programs. Essentially add a semester or a year and there you go.
  8. by   MishlB
    I know everyone is TIRED of this subject.....but you don't gain respect through years of education. I am an ADN student, and Iam also living in North Dakota. Although the laws have not changed, North Dakota DOES allow practice of ADRN's. And why not?? Because I have a few less theory credits, does that make me less of a nurse. I have met many LPN's (diploma AND associate's degree) who are amazing nurses. Don't judge by the degree behind my name. I will take the SAME RN BOARDS as a BSN.
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    EXACTLY Konni...the whole ADN versus BSN educational requirements issue is an OUTRAGE. When I think of the money I spent, the TIME in clinicals, going to school straight thru summer vacation for everyone else, staying up all night writing those endless careplans, reading 300-page reading assignments due the next day, the 125-question tests every other Monday.......not to mention all the pre-req course work I did, (actually a separate associate's degree!) the HOOPS I jumped thru for the instructors to make it---------- it makes me so angry to have to go back and do RN/BSN programs to "catch up"'s a money-making thing w/the universities, not a matter of anyone trying to improve the overall plight and status of RN nursing. Let us at least recognize this------

    and I agree, convert ADN programs to BSN with the little bit of tweaking it would take to do so. Make it possible for adult learners not in metropolitan areas to go to school and achieve a BSN in the ***first place*** and you would go a long way toward BSN-entry RN nursing!

    And what about recognizing OTHER baccalaureate work that is related? What is wrong with holding an ADN when you already hold a BA, BS, or what-not and being given the respect and credit for the higher degree? I know some who returned to school with me who already held bachelor's or higher degrees, yet could not get to a BSN program near them. Yet, they went and got an ADN to become an RN---- w/o one iota of credit for their previous work, except those classes filled pre-req needs. Perhaps a fast-rack BSN program for these people at all nursing schools is needed, also. Those are few and far between.

    The worst scenario for many of us (the one I am dealing with now), is returning to school, to get our BSN and having to literally backtrack some just do to it. It costs too DAMN much money and takes WAY too much TIME! Where is the CREDIT FOR WHAT I KNOW AS AN RN WITH EXPERIENCE????? And diploma grads face even bigger challenges getting THEIR BSN's......but it is the ONLY way they can become NP's, advanced practice nurses or clinical they do it....but...... It is frustrating beyond words! This whole process needs to be streamlined in order to encourage all of us to meet this goal!
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 10, '02
  10. by   MishlB
    And really...the ONLY difference between the diplomas and associate's is IV cert and speech where I live. Big deal!!
  11. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by Enright

    I think you should need an ADN for your LPN and a BSN for the RN.
    An ADN for LPN to do what??? Pass out pills?? Start an IV?? You have got to be kidding! If RN ADNs aren't considered educated enough why have ADN LPN??? Makes no sense to me at all! If you think the entry level to nursing should be a BSN..why have LPN??? I mean we are nurses...right???
  12. by   imenid37
    right now there is no tangible difference across the board between adn's diploma rn's, and bsn's in terms of what they can do and what they actually do in terms of function. we need better nursing education. evidence based practice, clinical time, and exposure to things like doing assessments and commom procedures, not more theories and dribble drabble. my adn program taught me to be a nurse and my bsn program taught me how to play "the game." in other words, i got the bsn back in 1990, because after getting the adn in 1987, i knew if i ever wanted to go on for higher ed. i'd need it or in case bsn became the standard, i'd be set. i also have to say, the cost of the adn was far better value for the $. in this day of mega student loans, i think you may see a lot of folks better able to afford the community college education, esp. people w/ kids or returning students. if you want the bsn to be the standard, then make it so that the bsn is in fact tangibly better, not just a slip of more embellished paper.
  13. by   SharonH, RN
    For the pharmacists' part: here is a paper making the case for the PharmD:


    And here is a debate from pharmacists about it:What pharmacists think of the PharmD

    I still can't figure out how they got past the naysayers and made it happen.