Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 10, 2002

NO I am sorry, Suzy, but it is not reasonable in the midst of one of the worst shortages in nursing history, to expect all to achieve this at this time. Like I said, the majority of RN's today hold ADN degrees; that is a fact. It would make it worse to do this at such a time. And accessibilty *IS* necessary if you are going to do this in an organized manner. Nursing is different than Pharmacy and OT/PT and MD work, in that MANY MORE OF US are needed to do the job than them. Nursing has a MUCH broader scope, as you all know. I applaud your riding one hour each way to school but then if I recall, you have no kids. Much more feasible for a lady like you than one like me WITH kids and MILITARY wife to boot. The majority in my graduating class were in my same situation and in no position to travel 100 miles or more to go to school. That is a demographic *fact* from what I saw.

So are you saying you would see a good nurse like me (and 1000s more) *not* be an RN due to lack of access to the proper level of educational preparation, as defined by some? Should I be an LPN 'til that time? Remember, I am prepared as an RN, not LPN, despite my lack of a BSN. Or, do you propose we expand the role of LPN's so that ADN nurses would be LPNs instead?

And, would you see rural areas do without sufficient numbers of nurses (actually they already are, it would just get much worse), to cover their needs in order to achieve an ALL-BSN RN core? Really? I would hope not.

What sort of timeline would everyone who is for this propose in which to accomplish this goal? 2 years? 5 years? 10? I am curious. I really need to research what the ANA proposes. But in 5, 10, 15 years, how many of us will there be left to do this job? That is a very serious question, given that I have been in nursing more than 5 years and have seen many leave already. Are you suggesting more young people would come into nursing if we all had the same level of education? Perhaps; I honestly do not know, but that would be a definate benefit, I admit.

I said I would Bow out, I am sorry, but I had to comment here. I respect education highly, but disagree that all should possess a BSN to garner nursing respect in general. It is a much BIGGER issue than that.

live4today, RN · Oct 10, 2002

Smilingblueyes...AND......Deespoohbear.......:kiss.......I TOTALLY agree with every written word in your post comments. Amen! Amen! and I say another.....Amen!!! :nurse: :kiss

Mattigan, RN · Oct 10, 2002

To me education is like a long, winding staircase. The farther up you get the more you can see. The more you can see the more you can do. Nobody ever gets to the top...and some people are just comfortable being on the bottom rungs or in the middle and that is okay but everyone should realize their limitations and either accept them or strive to overcome them and NOT belittle anyone on the staircase.:kiss

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 10, 2002

sorry, i just blanked this post here.

Mattigan, RN · Oct 10, 2002

I didn't say ADN's were on the bottom rungs but they aren't at the top of the stairs either. I think in the nursing/health care heirachy it would be UAP's or PCT's or Nurse Aides and I work with unlicensed personnel who are great and can take care of me anytime. Some are happy with what they do and donot want to go back for anymore education (or responsibility) and some do . BOTH IS OK. I was a nurse aide for 8 years, they see the patient more than anyone. I know..

The more education you have the better prepared you are. I know nurses who got their MSN years ago and haven't picked up a journal since. Not ok. I doesn't have a damn thing to do with DEGREES it has to do with EDUCATION.

DO NOT BELITTLE ANYONE FOR THE PATH THEY HAVE CHOSEN.PERIOD

you didn't listen to me either.

MICU RN · Oct 10, 2002

Susy K:

Love your post and agree with it 100%. Putting the profession first and not taking the debate so personal will be a key for positive change. And in regards to VSUMMER"S post it is obvious that the he/she is taking the issue personal, with comments like " it took me 2 years to just take the prereq.'s". Well it took me almost two years also. Why? Because I went to school part-time and worked full-time. The bottem line is how many credits did you need to graduate? Most AD programs require about 72, counting clinical hours. And it usaully takes someone who is a full-time student 1-2 semesters to complete the prereq's. and then go to school for 24 months. If anything, I regretted not going for my BSN initially because it only would have taken 3-4 more semesters and I would have it out the way. And the issue is not whether Ad nurses can do their jobs as well as BSN prepared nurses, we do it every day, it is about taking an important step towards becoming a more respected profession. That is one of the reasons I went back and enrolled in a RN/BSN program.

Mattigan, RN · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
I second the "waiting for the debate to begin"!!! :chair:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Nothing like a good scream to start the day!

I am sooooooo sick and tired of being sick and tired of nurses arguing this debate and trying to instill something that should be a personal level of education for each person. IF......AND I SAY THAT LOUDLY.........IF.....having a certain degree made a more qualified nurse, end of cheerfuldoers guote.

Exactly.... people are different and lives are different and we have to make different choices from one another.

then why in the hellskee.....like my new word...........why in the hellskee don't those "so called educational differences" show up on the NCLEX in alllllllllllllllll the years nursing grads have been sitting for the same NCLEX exam? Can anyone answer me this?

OK- to further "damn" myself (you did notice my signature line about not tormenting myself with shalow water- didn't you).

Passing the NCLEX does not mean anyone is a good nurse. It just means they have the minimum amount of knowledge necessary to be safe.

shannonRN, BSN, RN · Oct 10, 2002

i think that this thread is a wonderful example of how nurses are willing to turn on each other in a heartbeat. one word...cohesiveness. we need to stick together and support one another regardless of our degrees. i don't think that anywhere in this thread, someone has criticized someone for their degree. when i say that nursing should require bsn for entry level, i am not saying that the asn prepared nurse is worthless (for lack of a better word). and i am pretty sure that most of the posters aren't implying this either. i am sure that we all know a adn nurse that can run circles around that bsn prepared nurse.

many people take this debate personal (adn/bsn), and to me, that is not what it is about. it is about gaining respect for our beloved profession.

:nurse:

deespoohbear · Oct 10, 2002

I consider myself to be an important part of a team who cares for the patient. Even though I am only "an ASN" nurse, I am serve frequently as charge nurse on my floor, even when there are BSN prepared nurses on the same shift. Why? Because I am a competent and capable nurse, with more experience than some of the BSN nurses on our floor. The degree doesn't make the nurse, the abilities and skills make the nurse.

I also feel that if you are a nursing manager over a certain department, your skills better be up to date with whatever area you manage. The staff you are managing will have more respect for you if you able to work along side of them, not just stand there and bark orders. It is hard to know what us people at the bottom of the rungs of the ladder are experiencing at the bedside if you aren't there once in awhile. :rolleyes:

globalRN · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by MICU RN
Susy K:

Love your post and agree with it 100%. Putting the profession first and not taking the debate so personal will be a key for positive change. And in regards to VSUMMER"S post it is obvious that the he/she is taking the issue personal, with comments like " it took me 2 years to just take the prereq.'s". Well it took me almost two years also. Why? Because I went to school part-time and worked full-time. The bottem line is how many credits did you need to graduate? Most AD programs require about 72, counting clinical hours. And it usaully takes someone who is a full-time student 1-2 semesters to complete the prereq's. and then go to school for 24 months. If anything, I regretted not going for my BSN initially because it only would have taken 3-4 more semesters and I would have it out the way. And the issue is not whether Ad nurses can do their jobs as well as BSN prepared nurses, we do it every day, it is about taking an important step towards becoming a more respected profession. That is one of the reasons I went back and enrolled in a RN/BSN program.

==========================================

Somehow, an issue like this always ends up with non-degree

RNs taking the defensive.

To reiterate ad nauseum: NOONE is saying ADNs are not real nurses...but get real. In the real world when you sit down with other healthcare professionals to discuss healthcare issues, credibility counts bigtime. Standardizing our education at a university level will be a big step forward.

As to NCLEX: this is an entry exam, not an expert exam.

I thought there were studies looking at the quality of care provided by degree nurses versus non-degree holders at 1 year postgraduation, and the degree nurses were found to provide more holistic, individualized care. SuzyK??

globalRN · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by globalRN
==========================================
Somehow, an issue like this always ends up with non-degree
RNs taking the defensive.
To reiterate ad nauseum: NOONE is saying ADNs are not real nurses...but get real. In the real world when you sit down with other healthcare professionals to discuss healthcare issues, credibility counts bigtime. Standardizing our education at a university level will be a big step forward.

As to NCLEX: this is an entry exam, not an expert exam.
I thought there were studies looking at the quality of care provided by degree nurses versus non-degree holders at 1 year postgraduation, and the degree nurses were found to provide more holistic, individualized care. SuzyK??

Regarding unions: the AMA isn't technically a union but they are one helluva force and act like a union. Nurses need that same unity and collective voice in achieving what we want for nurses,

nursing and our patients. If this thread is an example, we have a long way to go. You don't hear docs arguing about their medical preparation/specialties.

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 10, 2002

Mattigan, I withdrew my post if you noticed, so you need not have come back like that....I re-read what you, and several others who oppose my position have written because I seek to understand the issue better.. I find so many of your posts enlightening, those of you who take an opposing position. I strive to understand where each is coming from. However, I stand by all I have said earlier, and I don't believe it's a defensive matter in which I do this, as some have accused us "non-degree" RNs to do. It is well-thought position I take as a person who is actively pursing a higher degree of education herself. Maybe, re-reading all the posts here would do us all a bit of good to further our understanding how each side feels, rather than blathering and getting nasty. This is what is one of the major downfalls of nursing is, as we know. And it transcends educational levels as seen here in and in the numerous other threads dedicated to this hot issue.

I AM still curious though. Those that propose an all BSN-RN work force, what is your proposed timeline and plan to make this a reality? And what do we do with diploma and ADN nurses at that point? I would love to hear what you have to say and my ears are WIDE open in a NON-defensive manner. Anyone? :confused: