Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions

Q. · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by mark_LD_RN
Peeps-- I don't see where the curriculum is all that far off the needs of today at the BSN level. I agree that there could be a little less emphasis on theorists and care plans, but a form of care plans is used today in every jacho accredditted hospital.

Quite the contrary, I think. Theories should be emphasized as much as they are because most of our practice is theory-based, like it or not. And I agree with care plans. It gives structure for a new nurse to learn, and, is theory-driven.

BUT...the theories that DO exist are ridiculous. See my old thread "Can someone be a nurse without Jean Watson?" James Huffman included a link to a phenomenal article written by a layperson in regards to the ridiculous and scientifically UNsound theories nursing tries to pass off. It was embarassing. I think we need to take a look at our supposed "grand theories" and rethink what nursing is, and then change the curricula to reflect that philosophy. Once we have control over nursing education and it is standardized (key word) then we can mandate the Bachelor's as a minimum.

As for teachers that someone commented on. Not all have a BS or MS either. One teacher simply holds a certificate. Only recently I believe did teachers begin to require higher education - as well they should.

Nursing needs to stop being so fragmented and disjointed. Take a look at the history of how medical education developed in this country - we could learn a thing or two from it.

live4today, RN · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
................... Staffing will get worse(if you can believe it) and "licensed" nurses won't have anything to be puffy about and prop up thier egos everyday..................

Peeps......those same nurses will then strive to be the one with the most certifications behind their names. :rolleyes:

It's a human issue to always try and outdo one another.....especially women who feel they have a lot of making up to do for being left behind in the career field in the first place.

Q. · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
IF......AND I SAY THAT LOUDLY.........IF.....having a certain degree made a more qualified nurse, then why in the hellskee.....like my new word...........why in the hellskee don't those "so called educational differences" show up on the NCLEX in alllllllllllllllll the years nursing grads have been sitting for the same NCLEX exam? Can anyone answer me this? [/b]

Renee, a general 4 year university degree is not all about prepping one to pass a test or to master test-taking skills. In addition, I argue that nursing is MORE than passing the coveted NCLEX-RN. What makes me a well-rounded person and one capable of speaking at public hearings, publishing, or being respected by NON-nurses is my ability to write, appreciate philosophic roots and it's impact on society and how society(my patients) view things, how art can be therapeutic, how history has taught us lessons, etc to name a few.

My RN license is just a portion of who I am and where I fit in society, and how I can relate to other professionals of the world.

Ok, enough talking. Back to work.

live4today, RN · Oct 10, 2002

I stand on every word I ever post on this subject! However....each to his own, susy k. I have never been one to upset the lifeboat of the person at the helm of things in their own life. I float my boat......and I respect others for floating their own boat in their own way. LIFE is big enough to allow us to do that without all the squabbling over what degree is or isn't the answer.......what certification is or isn't the answer......and who has or does not have the funds to obtain the same things in life as the next person......this includes the obtaining of a certain number of degrees.

I was a very well rounded individual prior to even going to college, and I remain that same well rounded individual today.....with or without a college education. College didn't make me who I am.....I was who I am long before I was even born. :kiss

Mattigan, RN · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Susy K
Renee, a general 4 year university degree is not all about prepping one to pass a test or to master test-taking skills. In addition, I argue that nursing is MORE than passing the coveted NCLEX-RN. What makes me a well-rounded person and one capable of speaking at public hearings, publishing, or being respected by NON-nurses is my ability to write, appreciate philosophic roots and it's impact on society and how society(my patients) view things, how art can be therapeutic, how history has taught us lessons, etc to name a few.

My RN license is just a portion of who I am and where I fit in society, and how I can relate to other professionals of the world.

EXCELLENT !!!!!!

ResearchRN · Oct 10, 2002

I agree that the BSN should be the minimum requirement for entry into nursing practice, however, I also agree that it should mean something. I went to and ADN program where I learned how to be a nurse. I then completed a BSN program where I LEARNED absolutely nothing. The BSN program involved clinicals that were a waist of time for an experiences nurse. There was extensive journaling that was completely and utterly useless. IMO totally female and

A higher educational level needs to equal a higher level of performance. If it doesn't there really isn't any point.

I agree with the comparisons made to PT/OT and pharmacy above regarding independent practice. With their advanced education they've advaced their practice. They are not told what to do anymore, but are consulted.

There is no reason why nurses shouldn't decide when and if a patient needs a foley catheter or an IV or what the appropriate IV fluids and rate are, etc. BSN programs should be teaching a higher level of practice. Then there would be a difference in practice between educational levels.

live4today, RN · Oct 10, 2002

Research RN.......I totally agree with you. :nurse:

ceecel.dee, MSN, RN · Oct 10, 2002

University graduate or VoTech graduate?

Collaborator or subject to be dictated to?

Sound, intellegent reasoning or emotional outbursts, swearing or giggling?

We must pick our demeanor carefully and wear it like a uniform if we want to be taken seriously and improve our image.

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 10, 2002

Most of the RN-BSN track courses I have taken so far are doing NOTHING to further my understanding and knowledge of RN nursing today. I agree with those saying if a BSN should be required as Entry level for RN nursing, *let us make sure it MEANS something.* I quit an RN-BSN program 5 years ago because the professors treated us like CHILDREN, much the way the ADN instructors did and I really will NOT PAY someone outrageous amounts of tuition money to do that to me as an adult learner with plenty of life experience. If you ask me from my experience, it is just another way for universities to make more money. So much repeated information! And so much damn busy-work! No wonder more nurses do not desire to return to school. We VALUE OUR TIME as well as OUR EDUCATION and want to get our MONEY's WORTH! Had MY way, I would more likely (and happily) pursue a BA and get some education I VALUE, history, language arts, liberal arts.......much more meaningful to ME, anyhow.

But if I wish to pursue an MSN, MHA or MPH one day, (not sure)BSN is on the radar screen for me. Will this garner me more respect in my practice? I doubt it; we cannot tell the BSN-prepared RNs from the ADN-prepared ones in any place I work. They DO NOT behave more professionally or "know" more. Many of us are certified even though we only hold ADN degrees.

And IF we are going to make a BSN the entry level requirement, we better damn well make it more accessible, across the board. I have yet to see ONE person here address that concern. That rural areas all over the USA have an access problem, not only to BSN programs, but qualified nurses and medical personnel in general, is a HUGE issue. Making the BSN a requirement will only make their plights worse, from what I can see. It is sad for me that my ADN program, properly set up, could have easily been a BSN program. The closest BSN program was 100 miles away and no, there were no internet or telecoursing options for me. For me, it was not an issue of lack of ambition, but access.

And unionizing is helpful sometimes, but is not the be-all, end-all solution to this problem. It is much deeper than that and its resolution lies deep within each of US to act, live and BE professional , united and INVOLVED. That is not something UNIONIZING can do *for* us (I know, I work in two unionized hospitals and have worked in a NON union one, also). If this were so, teachers' plights would be better, would they NOT?

Anyhow, I respectfully bow out. Because we cannot even agree to disagree here, we can easily see why nurses today have such issues out in the "real world". Thought-provoking posts, everyone. Have a good day, now.:kiss

TheLionessRN, RN · Oct 10, 2002

I just want to say one thing about unions, even tho that part of the thread wasn't picked up on more.

Unions are not for Professionals. If we are going to be considered professionals, then we need to earn the respect of the medical community. Unions are for people who put cars together, for truckdrivers and painters. I am not putting these folks down, but these are not college educated positions, and if we join their ranks, then we are sending a loud message to the world that we are going to use thuggary instead of intelligence to get what we want. I don't think we want to be thought of as the Local Healthcare Union #109, or whatever, when a lot of us are very proud of our titles, which are professionally earned.

deespoohbear · Oct 10, 2002

I have an ASN degree. At my hospital, it doesn't pay to get your BSN unless you want a management position, which I personally wouldn't take for all the tea in China. :nono: I have been a nurse for 8 years on our general med-surg floor. We have several nurses who also have a BSN and I make more money then most of them because I have been there longer. If I do go back for my BSN someday, it will be because I want the satisfaction of advancing my education. Don't tell me that I am not worthy to be a nurse because I don't have all the "theory" classes of a BSN. Most nurses that I know that have a BSN or higher and don't work the bedside have no flippin' clue of what today's nursing is about. Our DON has a Master's Degree. Ask her to come to the floor and take 8 pts and she would sink. So, would our managers who both have BSN's. Much less throw them into a critical situation where experience counts, not how much alphabet soup you have behind your name. If every nurse was required to have a BSN before they could practice nursing, the nursing shortage would be even worse than what we are experiencing now.

Q. · Oct 10, 2002

Please.....let's try to avoid bashing educational levels of nurses. That is not what the discussion is about. It doesn't matter if your manager or supervisior has an MSN and can't do patient care anymore; hell, I can't do all aspects of nursing either and shouldn't be expected to! Throw an Internist into an OR and tell him to do a CABG and he'd "sink" too! Tell a cardiac surgeon to care for the 26 week RDS neonate - he'd sink too! It's not about who can do what!

Regain control of our profession and our education, standardize , and then we can start to talk about BSN (or any BS for that matter) being entry into professional practice.

As far as accessibility to schooling: that is an issue that we are never going to solve. I rode the city bus for 1 hour each day to get to nursing school. My point is, we can't make everything accessible to every person. A physician at the clinic was from very extreme rural Wisconsin, and managed to attend medical school here. It can be done. It's how bad you want it.