A Lesson Learned - page 6

Again, there is another thread started- which could be interpreted by some as passive-aggressive remarks about advanced degree nurses, and it could not. I read it and felt slightly insulted, and I... Read More

  1. by   Agnus
    OMG!!!:imbar :imbar :imbar I did not know that I posted twice saying essentially the same thing. I thought I deleted the first. Then I came back later and posted the second.

    I'm sorry. I feel goofy. :chuckle Now I have to go back and read both post myself to see how silly it sounds. You'd think I could pay attention. lol
    Originally posted by LauraRN0501
    I don't usually respond to these kind of threads, as I am not usually a confrontational person, but some things mentioned have stirred up some emotions for me.

    I graduated in May of last year with my ADN. School was not fun for me, I had health problems, my son developed asthma and we were so broke that we still haven't recovered from it. And I made A's all the way through. (nursing, NOT a&p or micro!! LOL) Anyway, if the 2 year program had not been available, I would not have been able to become a nurse because I did not have 4 years to spend in school.

    That does not mean I don't value higher education. I intend to get my BSN, am actually looking at starting some pre-reqs next fall. I feel that if someone really is threatened by higher education, that is a self-esteem issue. I am proud of my degree, proud to be a nurse, and I am a damn good nurse in relation to my level of experience.

    I have read posts here, however that make me defensive. When I read posts about there needing to be a BSN entry level for nursing, I feel as though *I* am not valued. I read that because the BSN is not the required entry level, education is not valued by nursing. Does that mean that MY education is not valued? I know that I don't have the liberal arts education BSNs have, I know BSNs recieve more education in community health than I did. And I want to have those things, and I will have those things, I am just working a little more slowly than others.

    I think we all have nurses we look up to and want to emulate. That nurse for me is an LPN. Between her knowledge and patient care, I hope to be half the nurse she is one day. She is truly an exceptional human being and nurse.

    I believe people get angry on this board because they feel that they are undervalued and considered to be less than, and I can understand that.

    Nursing needs everyone right now. We are understaffed, underpaid and undervalued by the general public. Devaluing each other will not further our cause at all. To disparage someone because they have more or less education will only hurt us. I am glad for the CNAs because they do tasks that, while I would love to be able to do, I simply don't have the time because I am swamped with other things. The LPNs in our hospital have their own teams and without them I would have even MORE patients to care for, and the experienced LPNs, and RNs (ADN and BSN alike) are a wealth of knowledge for me. I appreciate the BSN and MSN nurses in management because I have no desire, at this point in my career, to do what they are doing. In fact, I don't think you could pay me enough to do what they do, but their jobs are necessary. And all the others I have not mentioned, CRNAs NPs, CNMs, anyone I have left out, we need them all, because all have different roles.

    I think people just want to feel appreciated and valued and when we don't, we are hurt and sometimes respond by lashing out.

    Suzy, I read your posts, and there are many things we don't agree about, but I do value you and your education. And I thank God there are nurses who want to do L&D, cause I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near it!!! :roll However, having given birth, I sure as hell appreciate a good L&D nurse and all their knowledge and nursing care.

    ...this is what we all are saying...Bravo!
  3. by   LauraRN0501

    Thank ya, thank ya vera much. (a very bad Elvis impression!)

  4. by   Agnus
    Laura, your post reminds me of a situation that happened when I was a CNA working in a nursing home.

    There was a lady working in laundry. She was the cherriest person you could ever meet. One day she came up to me and said, "Agnus, I could never do what you do." I was flabbergasted because I thought the same thing. I replied, " could never do what you do. I know what we send you to do in the laundry."

    "Oh, no," she replied, "You don't send me anything dirty. I love my job I am all alone in the bacement and I play my radio, and sing and no body bothers me." then she went on to talk about me having to do a hard job careing for patients in very intimate ways, showing compasion and dealing with personalities etc.

    Well we realized it was a good thing we both liked different things and we were grateful for each other. I did not want to do laundry for any salary. She did not want to do CNA work for any salary. Gosh can you even begin to imagin yourself doing laundry for these places? Yitch! Yet she was as happy as though she were in her right mind. (my mother's saying)
  5. by   rachet65
    I am a nurse. I do not care what type of degree any of my fellow nurses have. I DO care about working with other nurses who are competant, compassionate and are true team-players. PERIOD!

    Now, can we all just stop this nonsense and concentrate on what is really important? People are important (patients, families, our loved ones and ourselves included)-NOT DEGREES!!
  6. by   RNPD
    "I am a nurse. I do not care what type of degree any of my fellow nurses have. I DO care about working with other nurses who are competant, compassionate and are true team-players. PERIOD!"- rachet65

    As an individual, that's what I care about, too. But as part of a much larger group-my profession-I am also interested in the advancement of that profession. Then maybe we can "stop this nonsense and concentrate on what is really important? People are important (patients, families, our loved ones and ourselves included)". Then maybe we could give the very best care that we are capable of giving-unhindered by corporate greed forcing us to ration our services, sometimes to the bone, and oftentimes at the expense of the patients we are supposed to be advocating for..
  7. by   Huganurse
    Agnus post 62 and LauraRN post 63---Well said! I was thinking both of those things.
    Comments like, why bother, what's the big deal, and it's just a few more credits, come from the way the system is set up, and not the fact that we don't value education and how hard someone works to get that education.
    Last edit by Huganurse on Jun 30, '02
  8. by   fergus51
    I would think any program tries to sell itself. I would assume that's why so many ADN and Diploma program graduates always assume their program has more clinical time than any BSN program.

    My BSN program never gave me the impression that I would go straight into management, or into management at all in fact. So there was no rude awakening for me. Here true management positions now are starting to require Masters degrees. I think that's one of the problems with the BSN as entry thing, a lot of people seem to think that the only reason someone would want a BSN is to go into management and not to do bedside care.
  9. by   Agnus
    fergus I must agree with you.
  10. by   shay
    Originally posted by Huganurse
    You took all those management and leadership classes that you were told you would need because as a BSN, that is the kind of job you'd have.
    Nope. Never happened, not at my school. Nor was I ever told that BSN's were superior. You're missing the point here, with all due respect. It's not about the old ADN versus BSN argument, it is about the fact that

    People on this board seem to get off by bashing BSN nurses all the time, and it is somehow deemed acceptable because BSN nurses are perceived as evil or snobby or whatever. THAT IS NOT OKAY. I DO NOT APPRECIATE ALL THE CRAPPY GENERALIZING THAT GOES ON HERE WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT BSN NURSES. We don't deserve it, we didn't ask for it, and it's NOT okay.

    Again, I offered in my previous post that anyone who disputes this fact may feel free to pm me, and I will send you quotes and threads....and there are MOUNTAINS of them....from this VERY bb where nurses make disparaging comments about BSN nurses and their COMPETENCE simply because of their degree.

    Just as it's not okay to bash an LPN or ADN or generalize about 'all' ADN's or 'all' LPN's because of their degrees, it's not okay to do so to a BSN nurse. IT IS NOT ABOUT WHICH DEGREE IS BETTER, IT IS ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD WHO SEEM TO ENJOY BASHING BSN NURSES. IT'S RUDE, IT'S UNPROFESSIONAL, AND IT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

    Huganurse, I put the 'bold' stuff in bold because I feel like people are totally viewing this thread as another ADN vs. BSN vs. LPN thread, and that's NOT what this is. It's a thread about how there are things that are regularly said about BSN nurses on this board that are disparaging and rude, but if the same were to be said about an ADN or LPN, there would be all kinds of uproar. If we are all equals and all nurses, as so many who regularly bash BSN's assert, then why is it okay to be such a damn hypocrite and trash a BSN nurse SIMPLY BASING YOUR JUDGEMENT ON HER DEGREE?

    THAT is my point, and Susy's point, and Fergus' point, and Angus' point. I apologize in advance if it seemed like I was jumping on you or attacking you personally. I am not. I just want people to understand that this thread is about common courtesy towards ALL the nurses on this board, even the evil, snobby, hated BSN nurses.
  11. by   Stargazer
    What shay said.
  12. by   Q.
    Damn Shay, you go! Yes, that is the point. This thread was started as a way for me to vent about all the comments that have been made in general about BSNs, and about me directly and personally. It gets old, it's unprofessional, and, after a while, can really put a person in the type of mood I was in when I started the thread.

    But no, I don't believe BSN programs "groom" you for management. That was not the focus at all, at least not in my program. In fact, everyone in my class, like all nursing students, were obsessed with skills and learning how to do "nurse stuff." The desires to move out of bedside nursing is a personal choice, usually after one "grows up" so to speak. Or, after the floors beat you up and mandate you and make you in charge after only 2 years with agency and yadda, yadda.

    The beauty of nursing is the wide variety of employment choices.

    There are a few people who KNOW right off the bat that they want to be a nurse midwife, for example, and so, they get the BSN, get the OB job to buy their time until they can get into midwifery school. Or there is the nurse who is working ICU to get into CRNA school. So many times I hear disparaging remarks about THESE people too - and that is not good. We need nurse midwives an we need CRNA's too - I never understood why this profession seems so unsupportive.

    I disagree with someone who stated nursing is a technical profession. Yes it is, but you are forgetting the OTHER aspects of nursing that are NOT technical, such as planning, collaborating, educating, researching, etc. Nursing goes beyond just technical tasks and I think those aspects of nursing get forgotten alot.
  13. by   NRSKarenRN
    Shay, agree with you 100%. Also Fergus, Agnus and Susy.

    Originally posted by Huganurse:
    You took all those management and leadership classes that you were told you would need because as a BSN, that is the kind of job you'd have. [/QUOTE]

    ONLY management type class required was our Senior Seminar, where we discussed trends in nursing, nursing managment and leadership. I took Legal Aspsects of Nursing and Nursing Management post graduation as I thought one time of Nursing Administration or Education as posibilities in the future.

    What our BSN program stressed was excellence in nursing practice: be it at the bedside in a hospital ICU, Med/Surg unit, nursing home, home care setting or a move into nursing administration. A well rounded nursing practice based on nursing theory (considered "a new thing" in 1982) was emphasized so that we could provide the best nursing care to patients and be able to direct care in a large setting.

    We had a minimum of 6 hrs on the unit Thursdays and Friday with a 1 1/2 -2 hr conference on Fridays to discuss what occured during the past two days, both good and bad. Patient assignment occured each Thursday morning with detailed care plan and hand written med cards due on Friday AM. An inspection occured first thing each morning to see if our hair was off shoulders, uniform clean and neat wth polished shoes and CAP securely in place along with chart review discussed with instructor. We each had to perform basic nursing tasks at least one time and be signed off by our instructor asocciated with each clinical area.

    In those days students were cherrished and considered as potenital recruits. Most clinical sites went out of their way to include us in procedures occuring on the unit, whether our patients or not . "Do you want to assist with chest tube insertion...observe a code...have you done a foley catheterization yet?" was frequently heard. The OR nurses warned us of which if we don't assist in molding the new students, we only have ourselves to blame for their lack of exposure and chip on their shoulder fearing that first asignment dur to the negative student experinces...and leaving the units less than a year later.

    WE were never taught that we were superior, but due to our community health (one semester spent in home health, and state health clinics) pediatrics (in and out patiendocs would throw instruments or crazy questions when we shadowed them in OR.

    I know that accuity has changed the ability of some staff to be as generous with their time today, but t) and broad experiences outside the hospital teaching community groups, we could work in any setting out of the hospital, if we chose, as we had that experience which diploma schools did not offer at the time. The education stressed was understanding the theory behind WHY we performed a task... today's critical thinking. We also had nursing history, patient and professional advocacy interwoven in our classes, something I sense lacking into today's education.

    I have worked at the hospital bedside 10 years and 15 years homecare bedside because that is the type of nursing I chose and hopefully will become a FNP and set up home visiting NP pracice in my area because of the need I've seen to maintain the homebound chronically ill at home with high quality care rather than nursing home placement.... which will still be bedside nursing.
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Apr 2, '02