How do you guys feel that student nurses (in CA) now have to have a 3.5 to 4.0 GPA to even be considered into school? Also TEAS standardized testing has to be at least 90 or above in order to be considered competitive. The GPAs are calculated by Microbiology, two levels Anatomy, Physiology, and overall science GPA. Even if students get past that threshold, they have to write essays, go to panel interviews, and are run through the ringer just to get into school which sorts through hundreds, if not thousands (SDSU) of applicants every cohort.
I'm curious to know if you think you could pass the standards that are employed today for today's nursing students. These students could probably be competitive candidates for medical school, where as in the 70's, 80's, and 90's you probably just had to sign the dotted line to get in. Do you think that if you had to do it again right now that you could get into a program and become a nurse?
I think anybody can become good at something if they do it long enough, especially nursing. But with the level of students that are applying today, the future of nursing looks very bright. I anticipate these new grads will stand on the shoulders of their predecessors and drive the profession into something great.
Do you feel it’s more of an issue with students themselves or schools focusing too much in NCLEX vs something else?
Not the students, I think anyone who makes it into nursing school now or in years past is brighter than the average bear. This sits squarely on the shoulders of the nursing programs who do, indeed, teach to the test as a result we have students who flounder when they get to the floor. Nursing academia as a whole bears responsibility as well. It seems people aren't satisfied with our identity simply as nurses. I feel like our profession keeps trying to prove itself over and over. A few examples of this come to mind:
Specializes in Community Health, Med/Surg, ICU Stepdown.
I totally agree. Some private nursing schools are ripping people off, advising them to get a DNP with no bedside experience and telling them they can become "clinical nurse leaders", educators and managers. They tell them they can manage and educate floor nurses with 20 yrs of experience. Then it's hard for them to get jobs because some managers don't want to hire nurses for the floor who have a DNP since a DNP is not necessary for floor nursing, but they can't get the jobs they were told they could without relevant experience. Not to mention huge loans. Be careful when signing up for an advanced degree program with no nursing experience.
Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-3.
1 hour ago, Wuzzie said:
Not the students, I think anyone who makes it into nursing school now or in years past is brighter than the average bear. This sits squarely on the shoulders of the nursing programs who do, indeed, teach to the test as a result we have students who flounder when they get to the floor. Nursing academia as a whole bears responsibility as well. It seems people aren't satisfied with our identity simply as nurses. I feel like our profession keeps trying to prove itself over and over. A few examples of this come to mind:
1. Nursing Care Plans
2. Nursing Theory
3. Degree inflation
4. Focus on theory causing a lack of robust clinical education
5. Denigration of bedside nursing starting in nursing 101
I think you and I are more on the same page than it might seem.
No I agree with all of the above I never understood the care plans and most else of what you have listed. I also felt they try to turn nursing more into a mix of psychology, social science, and theory endeavor than what it is- a science based professional career. Medicine is also a science based professional career. Just with a little less fluff on the academic side. Still with its problems. if anything the Social science theory stuff should be left for the phds. Don’t force it down those who want a decent paying job doing something that benefits others.
back in my early 20s when I was a bit more brave we had a PHD nurse who would work the floor. She would hound us about the care plan aspect of the charts (they were silly). I got tired of it one day and picked one patient who had everything wrong with him and otherwise it was a slow night so I put in 50+ legit nursing diagnoses. Obviously ms PHD had to address all of these and I’m sure it was supremely time consuming and kept her late and She obv wasn’t happy about it. But hey right back acha. She then went through and deleted all of them which takes forever since you have to explain why they resolved and what not. Ugh
Couple things, first love the name! Second agreed, every generation thinks they had it harder while thinking generations younger than them are dumb. Third it is common knowledge that as new generations are made they learn more than previous generations. This is due to advancements in knowledge. I don't think anyone now would believe that Florence Nightingale knew more medically than even our baby nurses coming out of school. Florence more than likely was 10x the nurse any of us could dream to be. This new knowledge is great but it kind of takes the nursing out of nursing ya know?
Actually, I first worked as a CNA for a charge nurse who trained at MassGeneral around WW2. As she described it, the training was brutal. (And the grads who finished could nurse rings around us college grads- I've noticed that over the years about most diploma nurses.)
I totally agree. Some private nursing schools are ripping people off, advising them to get a DNP with no bedside experience and telling them they can become "clinical nurse leaders", educators and managers. They tell them they can manage and educate floor nurses with 20 yrs of experience. Then it's hard for them to get jobs because some managers don't want to hire nurses for the floor who have a DNP since a DNP is not necessary for floor nursing, but they can't get the jobs they were told they could without relevant experience. Not to mention huge loans. Be careful when signing up for an advanced degree program with no nursing experience.
I don't agree with everything being said in this thread ... but this is one thing I definitely agree with. The higher education can be great, but it needs to be accompanied by experience. One without the other just doesn't cut it. All "book-learning" and no experience doesn't work. But "all experience and no book-learning" doesn't work well either. Both types of learning can be valuable and work best when combined.
No I agree withall of the above I never understood the care plans and most else of what you have listed.
Nursing Care plans are just pretend doctor’s orders that some over-educated academic decades ago thought would make us seem more powerful than we actually were. Now that we are more powerful they need to go away. There has to be a better way to teach critical care.
Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-3.
2 hours ago, Wuzzie said:
Nursing Care plans are just pretend doctor’s orders that some over-educated academic decades ago thought would make us seem more powerful than we actually were. Now that we are more powerful they need to go away. There has to be a better way to teach critical care.
LOL yeah it’s just unneeded complexity with fancy words that have no meaning. That was one of my grips about nursing education. The textbooks were so large but not really full of any information. 2000 page med surg book? Absolutely bloated and not helpful in any shape or fashion. I feel like you that they work too hard to make themselves feel and look smarter than they are. The academic and textbook writers I should say. and they were overly redundant. Much of it had to have been for show.
Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-3.
Not going to lie. My pile of textbooks in undergraduate nursing school was thicker than both med school and NP school combined. Yet I learned a lot less. Partially was my fault but the text was just so frustrating and unneeded. A med surg book should not be as large as Harrison’s. And it sure isn’t because it’s just as full of knowledge as some would think. all that time wasted could have been more clinical hours and hands on work as much of nursing is.
Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-3.
19 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:
Oh for heaven’s sake. That should have read
“there must be a better way to teach critical thinking.”
No doubt. More clinical hours and lab time. Thinner textbooks and more useful topics. To be honest I think just subtracting the fluff would fix most issues. Students would have more time to learn the basics (as you said) and not have it all washed away by spending hours on care plans and the like. A medium difficulty topic can be made insurmountable when accompanied by frustration and over abundance of fluff.
I also apologize for taking this off topic. I will hop off my box now?
Wuzzie
5,238 Posts
Yes but having the basics would be a good start.