free training to be EN or go to uni and study RN?

round12tko · Nov 3, 2011

I understand that an EN will always be below a RN in terms of qualifications, responsibilities, pay rate and career growth.

My worry is that pretty much anyone can get a nursing degree and be a RN. The supply of new nurses out strips the vacancies. The entry scores required to get into nursing is low compared to other health science courses. With an average mark of only 60% one can get into a nursing degree course. Then one has to pay for tuition, books, clinicals etc for 2-4 years. Even after completing the nursing degree I think nursing students are still very green.

My other worry is that after the GNP what if one is lucky to be offered only 2-3 days per week RN work. There are so many unemployed RNs overseas looking for work in australia.

I would love to be a RN one day but I need to know the reality and the struggles.

I wished there was a place that offered paid training to be a div 1 nurse.

carolmaccas66, BSN, RN · Nov 3, 2011

Yes if you get into a GNP (Graduate Nurse Program) you get paid whilst being a Div 1 RN. You also get your w/end & penalty rates. But if you mean being paid whilst studying, after your first year, you CAN work and get paid, working as an Assistant in Nursing (AIN) - I don't know what they are called in other states. AINs work under RNs when they are in their 2nd & 3rd year of nursing school.

And sweetie, the average grade to get into nursing may be low, but even if u get a high GPA, it doesn't mean you will get work (I had a high GPA & had to move away to get experience). Nursing work is VERY under-rated for the amount of responsibility we have, and IMO, very under paid. Also to be blunt, no-one will give a $h*t if you have high grades coming out of your behind, they just want you to work hard, have good time management & critical thinking skills and to be a team player. And whoever tells you nursing is one of the easiest 'science' fields to get into, has never worked as a shift coordinator or as a RN, has never worked rural or outback (you are IT out there), and does not know what the hell they are talking about.

Don't worry re books etc - there are many people online selling old books, there are websites for book exchanges for all universities. Many big booksellers like Dymocks can give students discounts, & u can layby books ahead of time (and order them online now). Clinicals you will have to save for, or get a loan for, or move in with someone to save money, or share. There are many, many ways you can save money when ur on clinicals (too numerous to list here).

And the job market is only something I can tell u about if I had a crystal ball. But our economy is WAAAY better than the US or even the UK & France (it was just on the news actually with Julia Gillard that we are the best country for low unemployment, amongst other things). You will get work thru agencies, only if you aren't too picky with shift & where u go, and also you will need a car for sudden, on call work. You will also get shifts as a EN/EEN.

Email/call all the hospitals & nursing agencies & talk to their NUMs for recruitment, to get an idea re wages, shifts, etc and that will give u more info.

talaxandra · Nov 3, 2011

Although nursing's not nearly as competitive to enter as allied health programs, a smaller percentage make it all the way through coursework and clinicals to graduate - getting in isn't the same as getting through.

You're right that newly registered nurses are green - that's why we so strongly recommend a grad year if possible. We don't expect newly graduated doctors to practice medicine straight from uni, but somehow think new nurses should be able to function as well as those with experience.

Obviously different states, and even individual wards within hospitals will vary in practice, but grads on my ward have a job for life if they want it. The difficult position is getting in to that supported program. One of the problems of the US-centric nature of AN is that the grad forum's so strongly about the US market that you won't be able to get much useful advice about how the market is for nurses who're a year out. In any case, as Carol pointed out the market now isn't the market students entering nursing next year will be looking at when they complete.

I hear this concern about overseas-trained nurses a lot. Australia's seen as a desirable market because both our healthier economy and because of our trade practices - unlike in the US, Australian nurses' conditions and pay are standardised within each state. Nurses from overseas are recruited to fill vacancies left empty by the local market - they're not paid less than locally-educated nurses, and the fact that they're available doesn't mean they'll be hired over locals.

Finally, I think we'd see better prepared graduates if nursing education was funded so students had a wage while studying. I was fortunate enough to train under that system and there were unquestionably benefits. There were also significant drawbacks, including our use as nurses first and students a poor second. In any case, that time's long gone and I don't see it coming back any time soon.

Of course, if Enterprise Bargaining Agreement legislation changes then nurses could have to individually negotiate their pay and conditions, and overseas nurses may well be cheaper than the local version. That one of the many reasons a stong union is essential.

round12tko · Nov 11, 2011

Kudos to those who replied.

I think it comes down to money. How much is the government,hospitals, clinics and aged care facilities are willing to pay for an RN, EN etc? With respect to RNs, PCW are doing the work of ENs, ENs are doing the work of RNs, so where does this leave the RN? They are more qualified and have more in depth knowledge but they cost a lot more and want more money. Do clients have to pay an arm and a leg for RNs and doctors to fix their arm and leg?

ceridwyn · Nov 11, 2011

Okay I'll bite! What a profound question!

Why not ask this last question on the administration of hospitals, orthopaedic surgeons, registrar, resident, general medical practitioner, occupational therapists,physiotherapists, anaesthaesthsiaologist (sorry cannot remember spelling in a hurry lately) food services administrators, quality control administrators, all the top heavy hospital administration at all levels, suppliers of all products, drug suppliers used on said patient with broken arm and leg, on their forums.?

Do do not make comments about RN"S costing large amounts of money and probably referring to the industrial action in Victoria for more pay, they only want to keep the same wages as those in the rest of Australia and also not work archiac hours as proposed by the government as they need to have a life as well!

But the most important aspect of this industrial action is to protect Victorians and to stop non nurses looking after acute patients. People that are educated health professionals such as Registered Nurses KNOW that patients clinically can change to life and death situations in a matter of split seconds and Registered Nurses and ENs believe that having HCW's in these situations is not acceptable nor SAFE.

Maybe google for forums of these other more expensive health professionals and health adminstration websites and ask your profound question there! on how costly it is to said patient , with broken arm and leg and the taxpayer that is paying for it.

Meanwhile said patient with broken arm and leg, will receive the best care the RN and EN can give with mininmal amount of money compared to the other degreed health professionals involved in their care and the best and safest care possible.

ps maybe include the plumbers, electricians in those forums and ask them why their wages are higher than the nurses employed at the hospital of the said patient.

and also politicians forum that never suffer the public hospital system and said nurses working damned hard with patient with broken arm and leg and several others that are acutely sick as well.

carolmaccas66, BSN, RN · Nov 14, 2011

'ENs are doing the work of RNs".

OK will say it once again: ENs/EENs do NOT do RN work. RNs have more responsibility than you can imagine.

And for the work we do, we are not paid very much compared to other professions. I know a garbage guy who made more than me p/hour. Look at plumbers - they would make a fortune. One of my own brothers has no degree, and he now owns a $2 mill business.

This is why we want more money. A lot of strike action is also about recognition and respect, safer hospitals and better working hours.

Would you wish someone to care for u that got their knowledge without a degree, or with no hospital training? Nurses wages haven't actually improved very much, clerical wages for govt hospital workers also are **** (I was offered a clerical job for approx $24 p/h night shift - I decided to decline).

You just seem a bit naive and like you don't have any idea what RNs do, which frustrates me. I suggest you talk to some RNs in person or do a volunteer day somewhere, or contact the universities for a real life job perspective from a lecturer.

round12tko · Nov 14, 2011

"This is why we want more money."-GREED

How are you expecting to get more money when universities are churning out thousands of new RN graduates left, right and centre? There are more new RNs then there are vacancies.

If you want more money do a job that no one else can do or is skilled to do. If thousands of other RNs can do your job why should an employer pay more? It's all about demand and supply. Study economics.

This is all about GREED. Sorry but it is. In Europe, countries are on the verge of bankruptcy yet in australia we have strikes galore for more money. It's GREED that has made the US and Europe in deep **** and the workforce here keeps pushing for more money. Push until australia collapses. Australia is not immune from another GFC or is it isolated from the rest of the world. RN or not you are lucky to have a job. Money hungry Nurses should be not be nurses.

ceridwyn · Nov 14, 2011

"This is why we want more money."-GREED
How are you expecting to get more money when universities are churning out thousands of new RN graduates left, right and centre? There are more new RNs then there are vacancies.
If you want more money do a job that no one else can do or is skilled to do. If thousands of other RNs can do your job why should an employer pay more? It's all about demand and supply. Study economics.
This is all about GREED. Sorry but it is. In Europe, countries are on the verge of bankruptcy yet in australia we have strikes galore for more money. It's GREED that has made the US and Europe in deep **** and the workforce here keeps pushing for more money. Push until australia collapses. Australia is not immune from another GFC or is it isolated from the rest of the world. RN or not you are lucky to have a job. Money hungry Nurses should be not be nurses.

For sure it was not the greed of RN's that have effected your above mentioned countries. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

As for the oversupply of nurses, the universities here do not ''churn out nurses'' this is a term used by the countries of the Phillipines and India that oversupply nurses as the golden ticket to move overseas to countries that HAD a short supply, our universities now supply enough to cover Australian hospital requirements.

It is part of a profession to regulate themselves....too many new RN's less university places,THATS ECONOMICS and the correct way to balance things. As does our government with all places reduced in universities that are graduating too many professionals in one area. Unlike other countries mentioned.

ps...and perhaps Australians may be better off not having people with your attitude nursing them whether PCA, EN or RN as compassion seems to be lacking but greed is coming through loud and clear.

Was it not a FREE EN course you first posted about paid by who?

Scrubby · Nov 14, 2011

To the OP I guess if you ever become a nurse you'll refuse a payrise? After all you wouldn't want to be accused of being GREEDY. :uhoh3:

On a serious note there is a world of difference between being money hungry and wanting to earn a decent wage and have some sort of job security. Right now there does seem to be an influx of new grads unable to gain GNP's. However, looking at the average age of the nurse in Australia, 2009 stats show it's 43.7. I doubt this has changed much in 2 years so there is a need to train younger nurses in Australia. If they suddenly cut our wages or our year pay rises are below inflation then what is the incentive to become a nurse with the responsibility for caring for patients?

As for the whole EN having more responsibility than an RN I might get flamed for this but I'm going to say it anyway. I have a huge level of respect for EN's BUT the day when an EN cops as much responsibility/accountability when the **** hits the fan as an RN is when I'll start believing the gap is narrowing. It's not the tasks we do like starting IV's etc that sets us apart, it's the level of accountability when things go pear shaped.

You seem to make some pretty bold statements on here like 'money hungry nurses' and 'EN's becoming more like RN's'. I don't know what your background is in healthcare but I strongly advise you keep this attitude to yourself during clinical placements and try and keep an open mind. There's nothing worse than the know it all student who has no idea on what it's like to be a nurse yet thinks they can go around judging us.

talaxandra · Nov 14, 2011

I have to note, before I respond to this post, that I'm quite deep in to the current Victorian EBA negotiations on a local level - I rescheduled a trip to the UK so I could attend last week's meeting, and have been at my hospital every day since last Thursday working with organisers to support and educate members. I am so concerned about the potential outcome of these negotiations that I'm only sleeping a few hours a night, and I'm recovering from pneumonia so I have no appetite and am not eating. In other words, I'm tired, stressed and a little hypoglycaemic, so I may not be as diplomatic as I usually aim to be. That said, I mean every word I'm about to type.

I think it comes down to money. How much is the government,hospitals, clinics and aged care facilities are willing to pay for an RN, EN etc? With respect to RNs, PCW are doing the work of ENs, ENs are doing the work of RNs, so where does this leave the RN? They are more qualified and have more in depth knowledge but they cost a lot more and want more money. Do clients have to pay an arm and a leg for RNs and doctors to fix their arm and leg?

Of course it comes down to money - is that supposed to be an insight? Nursing is an obvious target for administrators, because the nursing budget is the single biggest cost of any hospital. That's because nursing care is the whole point of an admission. If patients didn't need nursing care they could go home after the doctors and allied health staff saw them.

Nurses are more expensive than minimally educated assistants, and RNs cost more than ENs. That's because they're worth more - the better educated and more qualified a nursing work force is the fewer deaths, complications, errors, ICU transfers and unplanned readmissions a hospital has. You know what costs more than a nurse? Failing to pick up a downward trend until a patient crashes - that can mean a week or more of a preventable ICU stay.

In no way, at all, anywhere in the world are PCWs doing the work of ENs - there's a reason why an EN program is many times longer than PCW training, and it's not because they're learning how to, I don't know, French braid hair. And while the EN scope of practice has significantly expanded from what it was ten years ago, ENs are not practicing at the level RNs were working at a decade ago, because their expanded role is about tasks, no the other 50% of an RN role.

A PCW could quickly be trained to do 80% of the tasks I do in an average shift. It doesn't take enormous skill to check a set of vital signs, for example. It does, on the other hand, take a combination of education and experience to take a set of obs, note that they're all within the expected parameters, but get the patient urgently reviewed. This year I've saved four patients, that I know of, from going from sepsis into septic shock while their signs were still subclinical. That's because I've got 22 years of experience. And that is why I earn a hypothetical arm and a leg - and my weekly wage is still less that the bedcost of a single day in ICU.

You know who wants to pay that? Anyone who has someone they care about lying acutely ill in a hospital bed, knowing that the difference between them leaving on their feet or in a heorifice is the quality of care they receive. Unfortunately, if someone doesn't know enough to be able to see past the tasks to the actual roles of an RN and an EN then they don't even realise that's what we do.

I am so heartily sick of having to justify to people who know almost nothing (or often actually nothing) of what nurses do why we need the education and skill mix we keep fighting for.

carolmaccas66, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2011

Gee the OP got hostile quickly, and I thought we were trying to help?!

OP suggest you start another thread on this - there are many re this in fact, too many to count.

The world revolves around greed. But nurses who have done nursing for many years don't have to stay at the bedside. They earn more because they do and know more. I only did a few ***** in HDU last week, but the other RNs & the CN there were fantastic & so knowledgeable - they ran rings around me. They SHOULD be paid more - they know every question you ask them.

Nobody would say no to a payrise and I doubt u would as well. And believe me, I've known people in the finance industry and some landlords who live their whole lives around greed & making more money. But I can't say they are happier than the rest of us (even though they may own huge houses & boats).

Nurses don't get much of a payrise anyway - the govt usually hands out a low percentage over so many years - then parking goes up, study fees go up & your payrise is gone anyway.

We all know Maslow's heirarchy of needs - we don't need a lesson on that. And sweetie, yes I did study economics at one stage, so I don't need a lesson on THAT either thanks.

And the debate re world politics & greed could go on for a lifetime.

Do you really think nurses are greedy? No I'm really interested in an answer for that one & I mean nurses alone, not docs etc. I think for isntance asking for a 3% payrise over 3 years is SO not greedy! When the stevedores striked in the 70s they asked a lot more than 2 or 3% (I remember my dad going on about it), & they stayed on strike until they got their rise. The whole country was grinding to a halt.

Nurses wages haven't risen that much really. Whereas surgeons had a huge rise a year or so ago - more than 2/3rds of what they were earning. Justified I think for the amount of time they put into studying surgical intricacies. Some are good, some are just plain bad. And if u earn more in nursing & do longer hours, they just tax you more.

And I'm going to say this straight: I'm SOOO tired of naive, usually young people who have no nursing experience or who aren't RNs, or who have only done one year of beocming an RN - whatever the case is - coming on here & telling us things that we are not. Please be quiet, go do your RN course, get 2-5 years of ED, managing huge patient loads & coordinating experience, then come back on here and complain to us how greedy we are.

That is all for this thread now. I am officially offended at trying to help obviously ungrateful people. I thought the advice OP you were given on here was friendly and sound.

I doubt you will have any good luck in ur chosen career anyway with that negative attitude. People are greedy; get used to it.

Oh! One more thing - a THANK YOU for our info wouldn't go astray. Too many people come on here when we spend valuable time helping them and we don't even get a 'thanks' in return.

Can a moderator please close this thread.

carolmaccas66, BSN, RN · Nov 15, 2011

the above should have said 'I only did a few S-H-I-F-T-S in HDU...' The AN site obviously automatically censored it.