Foreign nurses watch this...

Hushdawg · Sep 24, 2009

I must contradict you hushdawg. Canada is coming close to the saturation point for IENs and htere are still many nurses in the pipeline already waiting for their eligibility to be sorted out. They're laying off nurses in some areas of Ontario and BC, Alberta Health Services is offering voluntary retirement packages to RNs and the first lay off notices have gone out; because of the economic conditions in Alberta right now, many people who migrated here for work are returning home to their native provinces... and taking their nurse spouses with them. The unit where I work has already lost two nurses to Saskatchewan and several others are considering a move there. So all is NOT rosy in Canada.

That's completely the opposite of the picture I was given by a Canadian representative only last week. She informed me that the health care network in many provinces were in need of nurses and would be glad to take foreign applicants.

Interesting indeed...

Hushdawg · Sep 24, 2009

The jobs in the US are becoming very hard to find. An an entry level nurse is just that an basic nurse, most hospitals only require an ASN, and for the most part the ASN nurses have a BS/BA in another field so often they have more education than a typical BSN.

Luckily most of the nurses applying for the USA are also second-coursers with BS/BA in another field. Many are MDs that have second-coursed as RNs.

We aren't talking about Entry level positions for foreign nurses. As I've said, almost all hospitals require 2 years of experience from foreign nurses so the position of hire is not for entry level, it is for mid-level which is where the shortage lies.

petgroomer · Sep 24, 2009

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this point janfrn, finding nursing employment in Canada right now, especially full time, could be a real pain

I feel worried for the people who are planning on migrating here and bringing their families, what support will they have in case none of them finds gainful employment or arrangements fall through?

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Sep 24, 2009

Luckily most of the nurses applying for the USA are also second-coursers with BS/BA in another field. Many are MDs that have second-coursed as RNs.
We aren't talking about Entry level positions for foreign nurses. As I've said, almost all hospitals require 2 years of experience from foreign nurses so the position of hire is not for entry level, it is for mid-level which is where the shortage lies.

Correction.

Although one might have higher educational degree in another profession, it is the highest educational level of nursing degree that carries the weight in hiring process AS A NURSE. At BSN level, those with 2 years experience in a paid position is considered an experienced RN. To be considered "Mid level" practitioners in the US, one needs to have Masters degree and certification as CRNA, CNS, NP, Nurse midwife along with Physician Assistants.

Additionally, many states are requiring one to be licensed in home country in order to receive that states license.

Even RN's with experience having trouble finding positions due to economic downturn here and severe curtailing of filling open positions.

mrmiyagi · Sep 24, 2009

there are a lot of confusing information here. :)

petgroomer · Sep 24, 2009

That's completely the opposite of the picture I was given by a Canadian representative only last week. She informed me that the health care network in many provinces were in need of nurses and would be glad to take foreign applicants.
Interesting indeed...

Hi Hushdawg, I wish you all the best, and if you want to apply to come to Canada, then good luck.

Be aware that the information provided by immigration officials and representatives overseas doesn't accurately reflect Canadian reality. The process of coming here and getting started is tough, especially if you don't have a strong support network. If you're coming with your family, you need to think of them too: you really don't want your dear ones to be unable to find work and be exploited in a low paying demeaning position. Life in Canada is expensive too. What you believe is a lot of $$$ back home could be just your heating bill in Canada, and you cannot survive without heating.

I love Canada, and I'm thankful I live here, this is not a rant against this country. Just don't forget that this is also a "Land of shattered dreams" for many newcomers.

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Sep 24, 2009

Luckily most of the nurses applying for the USA are also second-coursers with BS/BA in another field. Many are MDs that have second-coursed as RNs.
We aren't talking about Entry level positions for foreign nurses. As I've said, almost all hospitals require 2 years of experience from foreign nurses so the position of hire is not for entry level, it is for mid-level which is where the shortage lies.

There are staff nurse positions, some requiring experience, there are no "mid level" nursing positions. Even the staff nurse positions that require experience are becoming harder and harder ( but not impossible to find).

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Sep 24, 2009

Luckily most of the nurses applying for the USA are also second-coursers with BS/BA in another field. Many are MDs that have second-coursed as RNs.
We aren't talking about Entry level positions for foreign nurses. As I've said, almost all hospitals require 2 years of experience from foreign nurses so the position of hire is not for entry level, it is for mid-level which is where the shortage lies.

Are you saying if I was a foreign physician in another country let us stay India, I would take a pay cut and work as a RN while I wait for retrogression is over? Also why would a physician not try to go the MD route ? My daughter recently took the USMLE 1 and aced the test, it was one of the easiest standardized test she ever took. Since this test is based on science and not clinical knowledge I would think foreign trained MDs would do well since they are not at a disadvantage like the NCLEX which can often refer to clinical practice that the student is not exposed to. There is a physician shortage and I believe getting a visa is easier for a MD.

elkpark · Sep 25, 2009

Are you saying if I was a foreign physician in another country let us stay India, I would take a pay cut and work as a RN while I wait for retrogression is over? Also why would a physician not try to go the MD route ? My daughter recently took the USMLE 1 and aced the test, it was one of the easiest standardized test she ever took. Since this test is based on science and not clinical knowledge I would think foreign trained MDs would do well since they are not at a disadvantage like the NCLEX which can often refer to clinical practice that the student is not exposed to. There is a physician shortage and I believe getting a visa is easier for a MD.

The US physician community has been smart enough (IMHO) to make it very difficult for foreign MDs to be able to get licensed and practice as MDs in the US (I wish the US nursing PTB did as good a job of looking out for US nurses' interests! :)) Foreign docs not only have to pass the foreign doc exams, they also have to get accepted into a US residency program and complete an entire US residency, regardless of how long they have been practicing physicians in their own countries. US residency programs have plenty of foreign residents who are new (med school) grads, but few experienced physicians from abroad want to go back practically to the beginning of their training and start over again. They find it much quicker and easier to complete a "quickie" nursing program and get licensed in the US as an RN -- which we make it comparatively easy to do, and, if they're coming from a third world country, they still make much more $$$ as an RN here than they would make as a physician at home, so it's still a big step "up" financially. There are quite a few "MD-to-RN" educational programs available now that have been discussed on this board.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Sep 25, 2009

No one is saying that if you're a foreign-trained doctor that you could come to North America and work as an RN. You would have to have subsequently been educated in a nursing faculty to the standard level required to be registered in North America, which for most provinces in Canada is a BScN. RNs and doctors are not interchangeable in any sense. I work with a former MD-now-RN and she does not function all that well as an RN. In fact she cannot be given an intermediate level assignment because she cannot handle that, despite having worked on our unit for more than year already AND being an MD. And in Canada a foreign medical graduate must complete a residency in a Canadian hospital before being permitted to write the Canadian physician board exams. We have many FMGs who are driving cabs or cleaning offices because of the scarcity of residencies for FMGs. Really there are no shortcuts. I realize this thread was aimed at opportunities in the US, but Hushdawg brought Canada into the picture and so I feel beholden to ensure no one is being given false information.

Here are a few recent stories from the Edmonton Journal; trust me when I tell you that bed closures mean nurses losing their jobs.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/closures+will+save+says+Alberta+superboard/2000388/story.html

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/More+closures+pending/1999233/story.html

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/exposes+plan+close+long+term+beds/2020202/story.html

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/Duckett+bullying+nurses+union+says/2015010/story.html

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Sep 25, 2009

There *ARE* Jobs.
USA DOES HAVE JOBS. Since you are a BSN holder instead of an ASN (like most nurse grads in USA) you qualify for the mid-level positions where the shortage is rather than the entry level positions where there are a surplus.
Retrogression does not mean that NO visas are being issued, it means that visas are DELAYED in issue. So go ahead, get your license, apply for your visa and wait through the retrogression delay... in the mean time get a job in any of the dozens of other countries that need nurses to increase your levels of experience. You can do this in Canada, in US-founded hospitals in the Mid-east, in northern Africa; all over the place.
Additionally, to get your initial 6 months of experience you can look into the NARS program. The second batch is closing on Sept. 26th but there will hopefully be a renewal of the program (according to DOLE Undersecretary) for 2010 for another 2 batches of 5000+ nurses per batch. The 6 month assignment will be to Rural clinics and Hospitals where many people have not had access to healthcare for a long time.
If you are discouraged to the USA option then start working on a path to immigration to Canada, New Zealand or Australia. Once You begin the immigration process as a nurse you will enter a training program to acclimate you to the NZ and AUS way of doing things; once you pass this program and are approved to work as a nurse then you can easily find a job.
Canada is no different, for BSN graduate RNs once you immigrate to Canada it is easy to find a job.
Jobs are out there! GO get them!
Additionally, a group of nurses could put together a private care clinic with very little start up money per person. With any luck you can get an MD/RN a DDS/RN an OD/RN and make the most out of all the medical professionals who have second-coursed as RNs. Use all your skills and earn income while providing care to people that may otherwise not have access!

Do you mind clarifying what you meant by the "mid-level positions" you mentioned. Are these nursing administrative positions, case managers maybe? I just have never heard the word used in that manner. However, I've heard of "mid-level providers" and those are NP's, PA-C's, CRNA's, and CNM's - roles that are not utilized and have no educational pathways available for nurses in the Philippine setting.

Hushdawg · Sep 25, 2009

Are you saying if I was a foreign physician in another country let us stay India, I would take a pay cut and work as a RN while I wait for retrogression is over? Also why would a physician not try to go the MD route ? My daughter recently took the USMLE 1 and aced the test, it was one of the easiest standardized test she ever took. Since this test is based on science and not clinical knowledge I would think foreign trained MDs would do well since they are not at a disadvantage like the NCLEX which can often refer to clinical practice that the student is not exposed to. There is a physician shortage and I believe getting a visa is easier for a MD.

I'm not saying I agree with this route, I am actually (gasp and shock) in agreement with you on this one.

USMLE is not exactly difficult on the exam side, but the problem is all the effort and expense that one must go through in order to take the USMLE as a foreign physician.

For that reason, many MDs choose to second-course as nurses because the same process for taking NCLEX and getting licensed is relatively easier. The goal is to work in the USA for a few years as a nurse and then take USMLE and become physicians.

Personally I feel that if you are a physician that you should focus on that and just accept the expenses and hassle involved with doing USMLE as a foreigner and this is what I advise when asked.

But like the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.