Forced to Engage in an illegeal Act!

Published

Many of us have had our share of horror stories. Well here's another.

Over the past several months we have switched over to a RAI coding system that many nurses have used in various jurisdictions. As part of this switch over, we have a RAI Co-ordinator that many staff view as nothing more than a Tyrant.

As part of this RAI coding there's a sheet that is generated where staff fill out called a Resident Assessment Protocol Summary. At the bottom of this summary there's an area for signatures. One signature area says "Signature of RN Coordinator for RAP Assessment Process". She indicated to me today that I had to sign this area to indicate the RAP's that I had done. I indicated that I will not sign that section because I'm not a RN, nor am I the Coordinator (I'm a Practical Nurse). She was very upset and reminding me that this form needs to be signed off because it's part of the Resident's chart. I reminded her again that I'm not signing that section. She indicated that no one else has a problem signing that section of the form but me and no one in our jurisdiction has a problem with it. I indicated that if government officials want me to sign that form, then the form needs to be changed. She stated that the form will not be changed and left the unit.

Moments later one of the nurse managers arrived on the unit carrying one of the forms and instructing me to sign that area of the form. I indicated to her the same facts that I relayed to the coordinator. The nurse manager indicated that the form is part of a computer program and that they are not going to change the form to suit our facility. She further instructed me to sign the form and put my professional designation beside my name. I indicated that I will not sign that section of the form and reminded her of a similar incident about a year prior where she tried to force me to sign a section of a different form which clearly had "RN Assessment" on it and I refused back then (that form was eventually changed). I indicated to the nurse manager that I will be contacting our regulatory body. The nurse manager left the unit and sent out an e-mail instructing all the staff that when they complete the RAPs on the form, that they are required to sign that section and include their professional designation. In essense, the nurse manager is instructing all the staff to commit an illegal act.

This has clearly devided a few of my co-workers today. My stand is that, if that form was ever called into evidence in a court of law and I was questioned about signing that section of the form, my proverbial butt will be on the line because I'm signing a section of a legal document that is beyond my professional designation. I told my co-workers, that it would be like an RN signing a form where it says Signature of Physician. Unless that form indicates Signature of Physician or designate, an RN (or anyone else for that matter can not complete and sign that section of a form, regardless if they put their own professional designation down or not.

I explained this incident to my wife this evening (who's also a nurse) and she indicated, "You're going to get yourself fired". She said this because she know's the long history of ongoing crap that goes on in the facility that I work at. I told her, that I will not knowingly break the law just to please this tryrant and the nurse manager. I also indicated to my wife that once I contact our regulatory body, I'll know more with regards to where I stand.

Has anyone else had an experience where they were instructed by the powers that be, to do something that was clearly illegal?

Specializes in nursery, L and D.

I am an MDS coordinator in NC and here is how the RAPS done by an LPN are handled. The LPN can collect the info, put it on the RAP, sign the actual RAP, then on the front page of the RAP the RN must sign that she coordinated the collection of the info. Are they asking you to sign in this spot or the actual RAP? An LPN must not sign where the RN coordinator sig should be.

Specializes in Health Information Management.

Coming at it from the paperwork side of things, you're right. And you could end up in serious trouble if you just go along with this, even if you're "the only one who has a problem with this!" Your instincts are right.

Being right doesn't mean you're going to stay employed, though, as I can say to my cost. I agree with the other posters: start looking for a new job now and do your best to get out of there before your employers get rid of you.

Specializes in Psych ICU, addictions.
Yeah off and on throughout the years, people wanted me to sign various pieces of paper. Like you, I have refused. I'm no MD and won't pretend to be one. You can bet your sweet bippers that if you get in trouble, those same people that are making a fuss and wanting you to sign, will run like rats on a sinking ship if all he$$ breaks loose and not be supportive of you.

Agreed--if something happens, trust us: it's YOU that will be the one left to hang. They won't do anything to put their own necks on the line but they'll sell you out in a heartbeat.

IMO, keep refusing, and start job hunting ASAP. Remember, it's your license you need to protect...and once you lose it, it's very hard if not impossible to get it back.

Specializes in ICU, School Nurse, Med/Surg, Psych.

Unfortunately it happens frequently that facilities try to save money by not hiring the staff needed for the job that they want done and think they can 'get by' until they are audited or someone complains to a regulatory board. I have a similar problem right now with the place that I work having no controls on the controlled substances that are stored in my outpatient mental health office. I have told them in writing what the problems are and offered my help to change the situation. If it does not change I will become a whistle blower and see if they really do mean their policy. :)

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything....

Specializes in LTC & Teaching.
I am an MDS coordinator in NC and here is how the RAPS done by an LPN are handled. The LPN can collect the info, put it on the RAP, sign the actual RAP, then on the front page of the RAP the RN must sign that she coordinated the collection of the info. Are they asking you to sign in this spot or the actual RAP? An LPN must not sign where the RN coordinator sig should be.

Yes, both the coordinator and the nurse manager are asking me to sign where the RN coordinator signature is required to be. The punch line to all of this is that the coordinator isn't even an RN, she's a Practical Nurse just like I am. The employer decided to place Practical Nurses in the coordinator possition in three of its LTC facilities as a cost saving measure. I will be challenging this also, because the National Guide book that we're supposed to be following states that the coordinator is to be an RN.

Specializes in nursery, L and D.

That is just crazy, you have to have an RN coordinator. They will pay for that big time in the future. I have worked with great LPN MDS nurses, but not one of them would sign R2b or V1 where an RN must sign. Please continue to protect your license by NOT signing. Tell those people to do a bit of research and see you are right.

if you are worried about potentially losing your job, i might consider signing WITH your professional designation, a/o, and also write, "signed under duress".

keep personal records for yourself, including names, dates, conversations, etc.

if medicare sees you signed as an lpn, then you are not being fraudulent or deceitful.

but that's my .02, being the renegade that i am.;)

leslie

ATTENTION ALL:

The OP is CANADIAN. There is a Canadian forum and the Mods need to move this there for appropriate responses.

1. We don't JCHO, or whatever term y'all are using. Our provincial ministries of Health will do the regulations.

2. In LTC, we often don't have RNs in Charge of Units. Any licensed professional can manage a unit. There has been a growing trend toward having Social Workers manage units over the last decade. Cost efficiency at it's worse, is that use of SW staff.

3. It is very hard for a CANADIAN nurse to be terminated. We are nearly all union members. There has to be an incredible amount of documentation, meetings, warnings, etc. to terminate us.

If the poster wants to try a wining recipe they need to involve their shop steward. Then they can alter the form in the presence of management. Cross out the RN phrase, initial it, have management initial the change and then sign it "xy, LPN". Not the best solution but remedies that have worked in similar situations in other provinces.

The OPs wife is right, he needs to look for another job. All of his posts involve a conflict with management in some way. His union will only be able to protect him so far.

He needs to think about calling the provincial ombudsman under the whistleblower legislation.

And learn to post his concerns in the Canadian forum, to prevent a lot of nice American posters giving out misinformation. CANADIAN LPNs have a very different scope of practice and do inital assessment all the time and in several provinces can pronounce death.

Specializes in Gerontology, nursing education.

I worked in facilities that had a medicare floor. Signatures of people working the floor were required on a form. The nursing supervisor would have CNAs who were assigned to other parts of the facility sign the form and then go work where they were assigned. As far as medicare was concerned, the proper caregiver ratio was being followed for the medicare residents, but in reality, a little bit of fraud was always going on. Nobody would say anything if somebody asked about this. Everyone kept their mouth shut, from the house supervisor on down. There seems to be a lot of looking the other way or compromising going on when it comes to LTC facilities.

Specializes in Health Information Management.
ATTENTION ALL:

The OP is CANADIAN. There is a Canadian forum and the Mods need to move this there for appropriate responses.

1. We don't JCHO, or whatever term y'all are using. Our provincial ministries of Health will do the regulations.

2. In LTC, we often don't have RNs in Charge of Units. Any licensed professional can manage a unit. There has been a growing trend toward having Social Workers manage units over the last decade. Cost efficiency at it's worse, is that use of SW staff.

3. It is very hard for a CANADIAN nurse to be terminated. We are nearly all union members. There has to be an incredible amount of documentation, meetings, warnings, etc. to terminate us.

If the poster wants to try a wining recipe they need to involve their shop steward. Then they can alter the form in the presence of management. Cross out the RN phrase, initial it, have management initial the change and then sign it "xy, LPN". Not the best solution but remedies that have worked in similar situations in other provinces.

The OPs wife is right, he needs to look for another job. All of his posts involve a conflict with management in some way. His union will only be able to protect him so far.

He needs to think about calling the provincial ombudsman under the whistleblower legislation.

And learn to post his concerns in the Canadian forum, to prevent a lot of nice American posters giving out misinformation. CANADIAN LPNs have a very different scope of practice and do inital assessment all the time and in several provinces can pronounce death.

Er, I understand that the OP has a Canadian notation next to his screen name, but does that necessarily mean he is working in a Canadian facility? There are nurses from Canada who work in the States, after all.

It's a valid concern to have raised, and I appreciate that you brought it up - no one wants misinformation to cause issues for others. However, I'm not sure the mods should jump to move the thread on someone's assumption that this individual automatically works in Canada just because he identifies himself as a Canadian. Has he specified in another recent thread that he does in fact work in Canada?

And perhaps the tone wasn't entirely necessary? The advice he received was well-intended, and it's easy to miss the nationality icon next to someone's name if you aren't particularly looking for it.

His previous posts have all dealt with his conflicts at work in a Canadian facility. He usually posts in the Canadian forum.

Tone? How do you interpret tone from the printed word?

Canadian issues are different, yet similar to American issues. But misinformation is still misinformation. Like the American posters who reply in the Cdn. forum and tell us to get our ADNs. This educational route doesn't exist up here.

You can always click on a poster's history to get more background before replying to a post. A lot of us do that.

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