Flu Vaccine. Necessary or Harmful?

[UnbrokenRN09]

Just curious as to what you guys think about the flu vaccine. Don't sit here and feed me the CDC's "recommendations", as I am well aware of them and also their "statistics". From my own personal research, I've found that the number of cases of flu related deaths seem to be blown out of proportion. Also that the vaccine contains questionable ingredients, such as formaldehyde and mercury, which are known to be quite toxic to the body...particularly the brain. And it also disturbs me about the strange phenomenon of guillian-barre syndrome that occurs in some people as well as other neurological types of side effects. There are documented vaccine-related deaths from extreme allergic reactions, to unknown reasons, but there is suspicion that these are underreported. I have also ALWAYS been puzzled as to the process of creating the vaccine itself. We basically just make an educated guess as to which strains of flu will be most prevalent during the upcoming flu season and place those strains in the vaccine. So in otherwords, it might work or it might be totally useless.

This leaves me to question as to why are we injecting our patients and ourselves with this every year? Do the risks of getting or spreading the flu truly outweigh the risks associated with the vaccine? And is it ethical to force all healthcare workers to get an annual flu vaccine or be terminated? In my area, there are hospitals who have fired hundreds of employees who refused to take the vaccine. That's pretty extreme in my opinion. I mean...I've had the flu. Other than feeling like a truck ran over me for a week....I survived. And it really wasn't THAT bad.

Why are we so paranoid of the flu? Yes it can be a deadly disease....usually only in the sickest, most immunocompromised of patients, like the elderly or those with many comorbidities, so I get that. But...the average healthy person just gets knocked on their keester for a week or so, then they are just fine. And in the process formed new immunities against whatever strain of virus they had. To some extent, it is good for the body to be exposed to pathogens because of the immunities that are developed.

There are some studies suggesting that annual flu vaccines lead to Alzheimer's later in life. I would personally rather take my chances with the flu every year. And have the right to make that decision for myself without having my job/livelyhood dangling over my head. I just feel like trying to prevent a (in most cases) non-fatal illness is a waste of resources. This really makes me question the true motives of this "flu paranoia" and the use of scare-tactics and bullying to get people to take the vaccine. Yes, threatening your job over a vaccine is bullying in my opinion and it's not right. If there was an outbreak of (insert deadly disease) going on, cities were being quarantined and health care workers were refusing the vaccine....that's a whole different scenario.

No, I am not a conspiracy theorist that thinks the government is deliberately trying to inject us with "something".

And for you people with the "it's the right thing to do to proctect your patients" mantra...save it. I wash my hands, I stay home if I have a fever. Period. Your 50/50 flu shot doesn't make you any less likely to spread flu virus if you don't wash your hands. Your hands are a vector whether you are immune or not.

I welcome all your comments....pro vaccine or against.

[UnbrokenRN09, BSN]

Share the sources your have uncovered in your research so we can read them and respond. What study do you think is most compelling? Exactly. Are the majority of patients on wards or in clinics healthy? Most nurses are surrounded by....the sickest people. This is an argument for vaccination isn't it? Please share a citation! This is an absolute untruth that has been disproved by several major studies including the landmark 2004 paper in JAMA as well as well-powered study from the CMAJ looking directly at this link. The original link was proposed by Dr. Fudenberg who started the MMR and Autisim debate. He was also stripped of his medical license in 1995 for unethical conduct. Verreault, R., Laurin, D., Lindsay, J., & De Serres, G. (2001). Past exposure to vaccines and subsequent risk of Alzheimer's disease. Canadian Medical Association Journal, 165(11), 1495-1498. Google flu vaccine on the internet. Do you get "scare" tactics from the CDC and AMA and AANP? No. You get "scare" tactics from a myriad of pseudoscience websites promoting false data and defunct studies to "scare" people into avoiding vaccination.[/quote']

You have some valid points and it sounds like you are well versed in the medical literature. I can't sit here and quote specific studies and I'm not going to pretend that I can! Otherwise I would've listed citations for everything I said. I could definitely put in the time and do it, but frankly I have better things to do than write an entire thesis on allnurses.com about the controversy surrounding the flu shot. That was never my intention! I also am not going to sit and pick apart every single person's argument and make snide and condescending remarks about why they're wrong. I am merely curious about other people's opinions on this subject as I have only scratched the surface on the wealth of information for both sides.

That being said, if you look at the vital statistics reports on the CDC's website you'll find that they claim 3,000-49,000 people have died yearly from flu since the 70's. Why such a wide range? In 2010 it listed only 500 true influenza deaths, that's 0.2 deaths per 100,000 people. That statistic doesn't particularly make me want to run out and get a flu shot. Then it goes on to more or less say that they don't really know how many people die from the flu each year, so the 3,000-49,000 is actually just an "estimate" because they are looping deaths from possible flu-complications into that mix. Well, what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Did people get flu and subsequently bacterial pneumonia or pneumonia, and then contract the flu due to their immunocompromised state? If they didn't test for flu on admission or during the hospitalization....how would you know??? That sounds like a bunch of fuzzy math to me or I am just missing something?

Have we even considered the profit margin for the flu vaccine?? That's a multimillion dollar industry. If I had my hands in that pie, I'd want people to get vaccinated too! Not to mention....who do you think provides the funding for the studies in the " literature" aka the Bible of modern medicine? You can make a research study reflect the results you want a lot of the time. I took that to heart in my statistics class. I would like to see data from several meta-analysis studies proving consistently that the flu vaccine provides greater benefits than risks in all populations.

I want to challenge people to THINK! Think outside the box!! Just because you read something in a reputable journal does not necessarily mean that it's immune to corruption and falsities.

[fetch, BSN, RN]

I want to challenge people to THINK! Think outside the box!! Just because you read something in a reputable journal does not necessarily mean that it's immune to corruption and falsities.

And I want to challenge you to READ! Read the pandemic flu forum before you post, because over half the posts are ones EXACTLY like this one. No one ever has any new arguments, very few return to their posts once it becomes apparent that most nurses here disagree with them, and no one ever cites any sources to back up their ridiculous claims - which is not surprising, as many also state "don't bother stating research at me."

And then after you read, I want you to admit that all you really want is to find other people who think the way you do, and to validate your way of thinking. You don't want to be presented with silly things like "facts" - you want someone else to say "yes I believe this fear-mongering as well! Isn't everyone else silly for trusting experts and research? Truthiness all the way!"

[llg, PhD, RN]

yup, in a very cold, but realistic statement, it is culling the herd. You know that pneumonia was called "the old man's friend"?

Yep. Going without preventative vaccines (and other chemical treatments) would be a very effective way of "culling the herd." We could say that about a lot of diseases. And people who are injured while behaving recklessly? ... Well, they'll probably kill themselves eventually, so why bother saving them the first time?

Personally, I prefer to live in a society that helps the weak rather than letting them die.

[ComeTogether, LPN]

Why argue a point that you can't bother to cite with research? People who do this often times are people who are pulling things out of a hat.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

1)I think you have it backwards.

2) were these children checked for genetic immune system problems?[

3) see number 2, if they were dif. in their immune system, this is the natural result

4) using death records, without lab results, because the numbers didn't meet expectations? that is good science?????

5) a large number of those persons died of malnutrition/lack of hygiene. you do wash yourhands, yes?

6) histrionics aren't going to get you anywhere. it is called evolution, the fittest survive.

7) Again, histrionics will get you no where. we as a species have to recognize that we aren't all going to live the average life span, just a fact. and when we "save" everybody, what is that going to do to this planet we call home?

8) and how does this relate to topic at hand? but, truly there is little successful treatment of cancer, except blood cancers, and stage 4 is probably pretty much palliative care....

.QUOTE=fetch;7630526] 1)So you're saying I deserve to be "culled" for daring to live with a respiratory illness?

2)What about the children who died from garden-variety flu between 2004-2012, 40% of which had no underlying risk and were perfectly healthy before they caught the flu? (source))3) Did they need to be culled?4) You're saying the estimated 100,000-200,000 deaths from swine flu, a majority of whom were young people, deserved to die? (source )5) You're saying that we should all stop getting the flu shots and invite another flu pandemic like the one in 1918, which killed more people in ONE year than the Bubonic Plague killed in FOUR? (source) But hey, that's just getting rid of the chaff, right? Who needs a younger generation anyway? The 1918 flu was most deadly to people between the ages of 20 and 40 (source), which is the majority of the current workforce (including healthcare), but that's no big loss I'm sure.

[ETA] All of which is not to mention, someone with CHF or COPD could still live for years if they aren't exposed to a flu virus. 6) How dare you suggest that they should go ahead and die now instead of spending their last days/months/years alive? 8) Do you also think cancer patients shouldn't get treatment? I mean, they're going to die anyway, and if it's discovered at stage four why even bother offering them treatment. [/ETA]

7) I didn't really expect to see any new anti-vaccine arguments in this thread, but you have surpassed all others with your incredible assertion that people deserve to die from a disease just because you don't believe the research presented by the CDC.

Do you realize what you have described here? VACCINATION. That is literally the entire point of getting your flu shot.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

but that weakens us as a species, we can attempt to defy evolution, doing which may cause our decline.

Yep. Going without preventative vaccines (and other chemical treatments) would be a very effective way of "culling the herd." We could say that about a lot of diseases. And people who are injured while behaving recklessly? ... Well, they'll probably kill themselves eventually, so why bother saving them the first time?

Personally, I prefer to live in a society that helps the weak rather than letting them die.

Just curious as to what you guys think about the flu vaccine. Don't sit here and feed me the CDC's "recommendations", as I am well aware of them and also their "statistics".

Any post that chooses to put the word statistics in quotes is implying the invalidity of same... which renders the entire discussion one only of emotion and personal belief, not one of science... which means that, while it may have some place in nursing, it has no place in medicine.

From my own personal research,

I'm curious, which peer-reviewed publications and/or double-blind studies did you use for your research?

[mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN]

There are two, very different, types of mercury which people should know about: methylmercury and ethylmercury.

Mercury is a naturally occurring element found in the earth's crust, air, soil, and water. Since the earth's formation, volcanic eruptions, weathering of rocks and burning coal have caused mercury to be released into the environment. Once released, certain types of bacteria in the environment can change mercury into methylmercury. Methylmercury makes its way through the food chain in fish, animals, and humans. At high levels, it can be toxic to people. For more information about methylmercury: please read “What You Need to Know about Mercury in Fish and Shellfish” from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

Thimerosal contains a different form of mercury calledethylmercury. Studies comparing ethylmercury and methylmercury suggest that they are processed differently in the human body. Ethylmercury is broken down and excreted much more rapidly than methylmercury. Therefore, ethylmercury (the type of mercury found in the influenza vaccine) is much less likely than methylmercury (the type of mercury in the environment) to accumulate in the body and cause harm.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html

Just did a paper regarding vaccines. All of you have said pretty much what I would have said (with more resources). We are to protect our patients. Like others have said, we are (probably) healthy enough if we catch the flu, but I don't want to give it to my immunocompromised patients or my son who has Type 1 diabetes. The flu could kill him (DKA). His blood sugars go into the 600s when he is sick and needs an insulin drip to keep his #s managed. I have gotten a flu shot every year, even before I was a nurse. Both my children get one every year, too.

[BD-RN, BSN, RN]

To those who have posted here writing about "culling the herd" and "only the fittest survive"; why are you a nurse, then? If you truly believe that those who are sick and hurt and have compromised immune systems deserve it and are not "fit" to survive? OP, you mentioned you don't have time to write snide and condescending replies but discussing culling the herd is in itself condescending.

I get my flu shot every year because I am an oncology RN so my patients are immunocompromised, especially my recently transplanted patients, some of whom are barely 20 years old.

There are 9/11 first responders who are now being reported with cancers. Guess you feel they are "not fit to survive" either? Why should we bother treating them?

There are some things we as nurses are required to do in order to protect our patients. These include our annual TB tests, physicals, and VACCINES. It's all to help others. Don't like it? Go into a field where it's not about someone else's life.

[RN&mom]

As a mom of a special needs child I strongly advocate for people to get the flu shot (though I don't think anyone should be fired for not doing so). My son is considered high risk and has a much greater chance of death if he gets the flu, so it not a question, the entire family was told to get vaccinated and we always do! I know there may be substances in the vaccination that put us at a slight risk of god knows what but I know my son has a much better chance of staying alive if those he is around are vaccinated... Please remember my son and the others like him when you are making your decisions. Remember you can pass the flu along to those who are more vulnerable without meaning to and while hand washing is great it's not always enough. The one thing having a special needs kid has taught me is you need to know you can live with each and every decision because everything I do has huge effects on him. I couldn't live with myself if I got the flu and passed it on to someone who was a high risk without doing everything I could to prevent it, even if they lived because the healing process can be awful for this population. I am not trying to guilt anyone into getting a flu shot, just giving a different perspective...

[chuckster, ADN, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

It looks to me that the anti-vaccination argument is visceral rather than logical, especially with respect to flu vaccines.

Of the 27 most commonly used flu vaccines in the US, only 3 use thimerosal at all. So the vast majority of flu vaccines - including all of the nasal sprays - are essentially mercury free (there are trace amounts in it - and in lots of other things as well). Anti-vaxers make a huge deal about the trace amounts but in fact, there is essentially nothing on earth, including us, that does not contain trace amounts of mercury. Probably the biggest contributor to mercury in the environment are the many coal-fired electric power generation plants. Most of that mercury finds it's way into the food chain, which then makes its way into the human body, but a small amount of mercury is absorbed into the body from the atmosphere and from contact with soil and other things that are contaminated. Virtually all seafood contains mercury, with some, such as tuna and swordfish, having relatively high concentrations. A recent test of canned tuna by Consumer Reports found that every sample contained measurable levels of mercury, ranging from 0.018 to 0.774 parts per million. It would not take too many grams of tuna to get to the 25 mcg of mercury that are in those 3 (of 27) flu vaccines. It's also worth noting that the HG in thimerisol is an ethyl mercury compound, not methyl mercury, which is the compound shown to be harmful.

I could go on but as I said, anti-vaccination sentiment is visceral and no amount of data will be sufficient to change a mind already made up.

[Lev, MSN, RN, NP]

One of my coworkers got the flu vaccine for the first time this year. Ended up in the ED with bright red eyes that were popping out. Was given benadryl and prednisone.