Excelsior Nurses

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Dec 7, 2003

Hey Lizz, I have a question: does the CA BORN still allow LVNs to "challenge" the board and sit for the NCLEX after they receive an additional 30-something GENERAL education credits? If so, isn't the CA BORN assuming LVN clinical experience as enough for eligibility to sit for the NCLEX? If so, then why aren't they also assuming this with EC LVNs-RNs?

Also, here it says that CA schools have a 23% decrease in graduates.

http://www.businessweek.com/careers/content/may2002/ca20020528_7551.htm

CRITICAL CARE. Demographic and economic factors coming into play threaten to make the situation worse. The average age of nurses has risen 7% since 1995, to 45, while nursing-school graduation rates have fallen 23%. Hiring nurses from foreign countries--a favorite tactic during past crunches--won't work now because shortages are a problem worldwide. And the recession has not driven nonpracticing nurses back into the profession, as many had hoped. At this rate, hospitals will be short 515,000 nurses by 2020--exactly the time most baby boomers will be pushing 70 and flooding the system.

In addition, the CA BORN's Executive officer has been a clinical professor at UCSF for some time: http://www.rn.ca.gov/about/execofficer.htm

as well as Mary Caldwell (UCSF Asst. Professor, and CA State Legislature member).

http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/ffcaldw.htm

And if you still don't think it hits the CA schools in their pocketbooks:

http://www.nurse.ca.gov/NWI-conpaper.html

Education Capacity Expansion SFP. The solicitation for the increased Nurse Education Capacity component will be directed to entities of higher education with the primary goal of increasing the capacity [slots] of their respective nursing schools. The goal is to use a proven capitation mechanism, such as that used in the Song-Brown program, to increase the number of slots beyond the slots that would be available otherwise. Schools will identify the total number of slots they will add to their current nursing programs as well as the incremental cost per added slot. Following the Song-Brown model, schools will receive incremental payments for each student who maintains their enrollment in the nursing program and who occupies an expanded slot. Schools will not receive payment for unoccupied expansion slots.

Sheri257 · Dec 7, 2003

lgflamini:

Yes, California has appropriated more funds to create more positions in nursing schools, so that they can take more students. State subsidies for nursing schools is nothing new.

Yet there are still waiting lists of one semester or more at the half dozen schools I am familiar with in Southern California.

Feel free to check the websites of various California state colleges. Many school websites talk about the waiting lists.

Actually, the reason so many students are on the waiting list is simple: California tuition is cheap. The problem isn't California losing tuition dollars to Excelsior. The problem is California not charging enough tuition in the first place.

If the state decides to charge a lot more then, I suppose potential competition from Excelsior might be more of a concern.

But I sincerely doubt that competition for tuition revenues had anything to do with the BORN's recent action on Excelsior, simply because there's not much revenue there to begin with.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Dec 7, 2003

Does CA still allow LVNs to challenge the board and sit for the NCLEX if they get an additional 30 gen ed credits? If so, do they not also fit into the "problem category" of RNs without enough clinical ed hrs to be licensed in CA? I was just curious about this because it doesn't make sense to OK this practice, but not EC where you also have to take 21+ nursing credit hrs, and pass a clinical component where the hrs aren't built up, but you still have to show that you have the clinical skills of an RN graduate in order to pass it.

Sheri257 · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by lgflamini
Does CA still allow LVNs to challenge the board and sit for the NCLEX if they get an additional 30 gen ed credits? If so, do they not also fit into the "problem category" of RNs without enough clinical ed hrs to be licensed in CA? I was just curious about this because it doesn't make sense to OK this practice, but not EC where you also have to take 21+ nursing credit hrs, and pass a clinical component where the hrs aren't built up, but you still have to show that you have the clinical skills of an RN graduate in order to pass it.

I honestly don't know. I could check, but perhaps it would be better for you to do that rather than me.

:)

Vsummer1 · Dec 7, 2003

All I know about this is that I go to school in CA. We are required to have a set amount of hours in clinicals in order to apply to take the NCLEX. If we miss more than one clinical, and it is not made up, we fail the semester and must retake the entire semester, regardless of whether or not we pass the theory part. This is based on BON requirements for minimum clinical hours.

Some states will allow an RN student to test for the LPN/LVN after the second semester in nursing school. CA does not, as the clinical hours are not enough.

The education (theory) part may be excellent, but if you don't have the clinical hours you don't get to test.

I don't agree, but I don't make the rules either. So, for me in CA the program would not work EVEN if I was an LPN.

heatherbless · Dec 8, 2003

i do not think it behooves any of us that have a connection to argue with lizz about any of this. i only notice on this bb that she continually has to have the last word in the argument and that to me...is a good sign of what kind of nurse someone will be. i personally think that there are other issues for you that have nothing to do with nursing and ec. maybe you should focus on those and quit beating a dead horse. we are not looking to argue with you, as you will never see our point with ec unless you have had some experience with it. i think that a lot of our clinical experiences are much stronger than yours--maybe if you close you mouth and open your mind--you may see that. you debating the issues with ec does nothing--but confuse the poeple who are really interested in the program. please save your holier than thou attitude for someone else--as we have the stats to back up our program. you just arbitrarliy quote""....some states that don't take ec. are you have a hard time in school, or do you feel intimidated--or what? do you realize that most of us have more clinical experience in the field than you do?? please quit insulting our intelligence--you act as if you are meant to be the only qualified nurse on the whole bb, and i am tired of it. get it- hty.

heatherbless · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by lizz
If Excelsior works for you, that's fine. I just object to people saying that all issues raised about this program are "rumor and myth."

That's simply not true, as the above mentioned documents demonstrate.

Personally, I would not want to graduate from any school where these kinds of issues have been raised about their reputation.

The fact is, there are some hospitals who won't hire Excelsior graduates, just as there are some states that won't license them.

Will Excelsior graduates find work elsewhere? Probably. But I personally wouldn't want it on my resume.

THIS IS WHERE YOU GOT PERSONAL--WE HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR PROGRAM AND NOT WANTING IT ON OUR RESUMES. JUST ONE LAST QUESTION??

WOULD YOU EVEN BE ELIGIBLE TO GET INTO EXCELSIOR AND HAVE YOU EVEN TAKEN ONE TEST FROM THEM?

HTY/

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Dec 8, 2003

Breathe, Heather, breathe...lol. Don't worry about it...i've heard worse than this from people who ragged on me about being an LPN, and I'm sure you have, too. When I was in a bridge program, I got ragged on for that, too. Lizz isn't being nearly as obnoxious about this as some have been on this board about the other things mentioned. Your title or the school or the program you choose doesn't determine your intelligence, or your worth as a nurse. There are always going to be people out there who haven't walked in your shoes who have opinions about the things you do. All you can do is keep trucking, and keep focusing on what is going to get you what you need out of life.

Sheri257 · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by heatherbless
THIS IS WHERE YOU GOT PERSONAL--WE HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR PROGRAM AND NOT WANTING IT ON OUR RESUMES. JUST ONE LAST QUESTION??
WOULD YOU EVEN BE ELIGIBLE TO GET INTO EXCELSIOR AND HAVE YOU EVEN TAKEN ONE TEST FROM THEM?

HTY/

Of course I would be eligible to get into Excelsior, if I wanted to. But I would never want to.

I would not want Excelsior on my resume, and I stand by that statement.

I live in California, where there is much documented controversy about this program.

That is why I would not want it on my resume.

It has nothing to do with being personal.

It has everything to do with the public record of the Board of Registered Nursing, in the state where I live.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by lizz
I live in California, where there is much documented controversy about this program.

Again with the blanket statements. There is not much documented controversy from what I can tell. I got the same things that you posted when I did my own Google search, so there's that. Oh, and FYI for all you EC students/grads- word has it through the grapevine that there will be another hearing about this, and now CA might have to state their case to the NLN regarding this.

Another interesting point Quoted by Lizz on the Joy in Striking? thread:

It's strange because the local hospitals do support the nursing school financially and otherwise. Yet they still refuse to pay competitive wages to keep more graduates here --- only paying more when the union forced them to. [/b]

Hmmm...you mean all those complaining hospitals you were talking about are financially and otherwise supporting local CA nursing schools? Yet, they have no financial interest in seeing EC grads not being able to get CA licensure? Plus, they don't pay compeititve wages- that's not very trend-setting, is it?

Maybe the new trend is paying competitive wages, covering tuition expenses, and allowing licensure/work for those who have chosen alternative methods of receiving their education? Trend-setting might be geared more toward increasing the options for working nurses to better their situations themselves. Trend-setting might allow working LPNs etc. to bank up their working clinical hrs toward their future education. After all, the hospitals want more RNs, and it benefits them if LPNs aren't "stuck" as LPNs if they don't want to be. I have made this point to people with bigger guns than you- it got me a thumbs up to do it this way, and it got me the financial coverage to do it. You're going to have to give me more than a few blanket statements and a couple of links from another state with biased interests to change my mind on this one. And FYI: one of those people with bigger guns is our Chief Nursing Officer, as well as the head of the Nursing Dept. at the nursing school attached to our teaching hospital. She also happens to be a very forward-thinking person.

And as for the poster who stated CA has a required # of clinical hrs to be done in nsg school (sorry- I forgot who you were) , I think all states have that- I know Indiana and KY do, but they forego that requirement if you have so many clinical hrs already in the workforce. I think all states could benefit from that.

Sheri257 · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by lgflamini
Again with the blanket statements. There is not much documented controversy from what I can tell. I got the same things that you posted when I did my own Google search, so there's that.

Hmmm...you mean all those complaining hospitals you were talking about are financially and otherwise supporting local CA nursing schools? Yet, they have no financial interest in seeing EC grads not being able to get CA licensure? Plus, they don't pay compeititve wages- that's not very trend-setting, is it?

I already cited the documentation, where the board found 14 Excelsior violations during their investigation. I do consider that to be substantial. If you don't, well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

As far as the hospitals in my area, California is a vast state with many hospitals. Since the cost of living in my area is cheaper, the hospitals do feel they can pay less. Therefore, many of the graduates do commute a half hour away to other hospitals --- in California --- which do, in fact, pay more.

Of course, there some California hospitals which pay as little as they think they can get away with. Just as there are other California hospitals which pay very well.

This is nothing new for hospitals in California or, I suspect, any other state.

What does this have to do with Excelsior?

featherzRN, MSN · Dec 8, 2003

I have worked in at least 10 California hospitals since graduating RC/EC in 1989 (some at the same time doing per diem work). None have said a word about my schooling-as a matter of fact, at the VA they asked me to help out with others that were going through Regents (as it was called then).

I now work with Kaiser, and I don't even remember them asking-all they cared about was a license.

It may come to pass that California hospitals will en masse start turning down EC grads, but with the nursing shortage and possible ratios I doubt it.