Euthanasia/Spirituality

[BBelle]

I am a member of this board, but rarely post. I have a few questions that I would like to ask.

How many of you believe in Physician Assisted Suicide? I believe that a patient should have that right if there prognosis is terminal and there is no hope of recovery.

Secondly, how many of you believe in the Other Side? You know, if a patient says that they see a bright light with there loved ones waiting for them. And if you do believe, do you talk about it with your terminal patients if they ask you about it.

I firmly believe in the Other Side, I believe that when we pass away it is just our body that is gone, our spirit moves on to the Other Side, where we are happy and care free. Belle

[micro, RN]

ohbet,

if i might just share an experience in brief that happened to me

in brief, because i must respect confidentiality

patient very bad physical, multisystem deterioration and no positive prognosis to the point of discussion.......

patient in extreme pain and also just past the emotional breaking point at that moment in time.........

words said to me, with such urgency were of the such, to please if there was anyway for me to help it all be over "right now"......do it..........

oh, my heart, both as a nurse and another human being hurt so much for this patient, but no...........at that moment I knew that there is a tug in me, that wouldn't actively participate in active euthanasia.........

(of course, I know that I would not for legal, etc, and we are not at that point anyway)..........

(I have no problem with comfort care, and with high doses of narcotics for pain control with endstage, etc............) but life is so precious.........

and I start to ramble and feel emotional about this subject............

maybe I will go make salads at Arthur's Garden Deli instead of this emotionally painful career of nursing...........

we just see so much suffering............

ohbet, thanks for asking and I am yet open...........but found my gut/heart reaction to those words when asked directly to me profound..............

micro

[teeituptom, BSN, RN]

Howdy yall

from deep in the heat of texas

I knew it

I knew it all along

never had a doubt

Never had a doubt atall

It was the only

It was the only explantation possible

nothing else

nothing else made sense

MICRO REALLY IS A BLONDE

Hey micro

do you know the difference between a blonde and a mosquito???????????????????????????

doo wah ditty

[rncountry]

Several years ago when I worked in a neuro ICU I had a patient that was 88 years old who had tripped over her walker in the bathroom and fractured at C1. She was paralyzed from the neck down. She was put in neck traction, unable to go to surgery and have it stabilized because she was such a poor risk D/T many underlying medical problems. I took care of this lady more nights than I care to remember. She was vented, CVL with swan, dobhoff down. Night after night she would implore us to let her die. To help her die. Her lips were easy to read. Her husband would not take her off the vent because he didn't want to kill her, he loved her. Would talk about their lives together with the nurses, their children, their grandchildren. At first the answer as to whether we could remove her from the vent was a firm no, as she could not actually speak it was the standard answer that we didn't actually know what she wanted. But as time went by and more staff and docs were able to read those imploring lips and haunting eyes, the docs and nurses began actively talking to the husband about removing the vent. He resisted every effort to see truly what was happening. Poor man, I do not mean to make him the bad guy here. To watch his stooping shoulders and his drooping head when he would leave the unit was as heart rending as taking care of his wife. Eventually this case was taken to the ethics committee and the decision was made to take it to court. The primary doc, who was wonderful, called the whole family, 4 children, and asked them to come in for a family meeting. At that meeting he laid out everything, what the staff was seeing, that the children had also seen it, that some of the older grandchildren had also seen her requesting to be allowed to die. He went through the meeting with the ethics committee and their decision to go to court as an advocate for the patient. The husband laid his head on the table, and quietly said it was ok to take her off the vent. We waited awhile because the family wanted to let the older grandchildren know so they could come if they wanted. When the vent was removed her husband sat on her bed and the tears never ceased. The patient was given morphine prior to vent romoval and never did take a breathe on her own. She simply looked at her family, squeezed her husband's hand and closed her eyes. Then smiled.

Her name was Sarah. She had 4 children and 15 grandchildren. Her husband had fought in WWII and she had meant him by corresponding with him while he was at war. He asked her to marry him before he had even seen her. They had put all of their children through MSU. After he had retired they traveled the country quite a bit and her favorite place was Colorado. 8 years later I can still remember this as clearly as if it had taken place yesterday because the pain that was caused to this family simply because of the technology to keep someone breathing was horrid. It was during this time frame that I started to have regular nightmares about my children on vents, and my inability to get to them to help. Just because we can intervene doesn't mean we should.

I do not believe in active euthanasia, Dr. Kevorkian is a madman, truly. But I also cannot condone continuing to keep someone alive simply for the sake of being able to do so.

Over the years I have had too many patients who saw or felt things at the end of life to not believe in heaven.

Mario, once upon a time in this country there was forced sterealization(sp) for people who were mentally ill and people who had things like Down's syndrome, I believe it was in the 1930's. It was a policy that was driven by certain docs beliefs. It is now illegal, thank God. If one chooses to be tested for genetic problems and chooses not to have children, that is an individual's right. However it is never the right for the government to make it policy. NEVER. Ranks right up with there with lobotomies. The Nazi's may have learned a great deal about genetics but they did so by forcing medical experiments on the Jews they had in concentration camps. A bit like Kevorkian's idea of doing the same on the prision population, who had by his viewpoint, lost their rights anyway.

If appropriate pain control and decent end of life care was readily available I don't know that this would be a question that needed asking. If in this country we didn't think we should attempt to save everyone simply because we can, this question would be a moot point.

[ohbet]

Micro,I dont mean to to be cynical,but maybe that tug you felt was from the fact that you know that if you actively euthanised this person,you might have gone to jail.

PS,micro,do you really look like that?

[micro, RN]

ohbet, teeituptom and others.......

imho......micro becomes micro again......

shakira will have to speak for herself.....

micro is truly brunette......as well as much other......

teeitup.....so what is the difference between a blonde and a mosquito? oooooops, sorry micro digresses again.....PM me the answer......

oh bet.....you about pegged my thought processes.......not that i would have mind you but this has been on my lil' mind lately.......

what kind of dressing would you like with your salad?

[graduate 2004]

I think human beings have a sense about their passing. I have known 5 special people in my life who have passed due to special circumstances and I beleive that most had a "feeling" or an idea which is better suited for them. If a man or women is close to thier spirituality, then pain and suffering is only natural. If one does not have a spirtual connection, then ending it all quickly is thier answer.

My grandfather passed about 8 months ago and while the family sat at his bedside, he was peaceful. My grandfather was a man of God, building many churches and living by the Word. The man in the room next door constantly screamed in pain while his family argued over who was to obtain his valubles. The man receicved large doses of morphine yet still screamed. I think this was a sign of what was to come. The man next door was tortured and begged for death; my grandfather was peacefull (even with bone cancer) and enjoyed his last days with his wife, children and grandchildren in peace.

During the long weeks in hospice, sitting with my grandfather, I witnessed several people on thier deathbeds and the trend seemed the same. Therefore I tend to say "nay" I don't beleive in doctor assisted death due to the fect that anyone can be saved, even in the brink of their death.

[ohbet]

micro,Id rather look at the chick

[ohbet]

mccountry

You say you dont believe in active euthanasia then immediately mention mmadman Kevorkian.The methods of Kevorkian,who often times didnt even know the precise knowledge of the patient and his.her illness,is not what Im talking about in regards to active hellp in dying.

Because of Kevorkian , active help in dying calls for more legal regulation appropriate to the situation and compulsory medical controlling authorities. In every case there has to be a legally authenticated and completely voluntary declaration on the part of the person concerned, who himself or herself specifies the precise conditions of their dying.

Are people against active euthanasia because the mistakenly concieve it as Murder?

[micro, RN]

Originally posted by ohbet

micro,Id rather look at the chick

so teeitup.....what answer to the question about blondes and mosquitos.......

but digressing again.....

micro and out, because I am going to siesta right about now........

there is a sense about life and many things......

including the time of illness and death.......

and when the subject must be discussed and thought on more seriously............

keep on posting..........

micro is back.........

:p

[renerian, BSN, RN]

First yes I have many years of oncology experience so I have seen many people die slow lingering deaths. I hope if I ever am faced with that I can find a DR. who will help me die.

Secondly I have brought back several patients who coded and told me they rose to the corner of the room, watched and heard what we said and they saw the bright light and desired to return. They both said they had immense pain upon returning.

[ohbet]

bbelle,

In addition to your wish not to be left in torment in your final days, Im sure their are millions of other people on this planet who would be alot more comfortable knowing if their day came when life became intolerable because of illnes and beyond the help of interventions to restore the quality of their life, the Dr. caring for them would do the right and merciful thing by respecting the wishes to leave a world that now has become a tormenting hell and take an active part in that passing.

God Bless.

[Teshiee]

This is very deep thread. I am so touched by all of your threads. I use to work in LTC facility and when a patient is dying I feel sad for them to go but I like many others on this thread believe that there is an other side. To take it a step farther I don't believe there is a hell in a sense the bible but our lives we live with ups and downs dealing with negativity to prepare ourselves for our passing. I believe no one should suffer it is your right to die how ever you wish. I am not to keen on assisted suicide but if one request it I do not judge them. Knowing there is far better place dying doesn't seem to be a bad thing. You are happy that your loved one is going to a better place but missing them like something awful. Whatever each one of us believe it is comforting to know that we respect each other and care. :-)