Euthanasia/Spirituality

[BBelle]

I am a member of this board, but rarely post. I have a few questions that I would like to ask.

How many of you believe in Physician Assisted Suicide? I believe that a patient should have that right if there prognosis is terminal and there is no hope of recovery.

Secondly, how many of you believe in the Other Side? You know, if a patient says that they see a bright light with there loved ones waiting for them. And if you do believe, do you talk about it with your terminal patients if they ask you about it.

I firmly believe in the Other Side, I believe that when we pass away it is just our body that is gone, our spirit moves on to the Other Side, where we are happy and care free. Belle

[renerian, BSN, RN]

Unfortunately so many times people are referred to hospice to late in their dying phase. They could do so much more for the patient and family if they had more time.

[BBelle]

donmurray, I agree that there are some quacks out there when it comes to mediums, but I have to say that, imo, John Edward is the real thing. I think some people are afraid of the unknown.

I mean how can one, such as John Edward, read a total stranger whom he nor his staff have ever met? And how can he be so accurate with these people. I mean he tells them things that no one whould ever know except for the person that he is reading.

And that guy who has the "Skeptic Magazine", he is really closed minded. I have seen him on tv, and have read an issue of his magazine. He is just one of those people who need proof.

And ghosts, he doesn't believe in them either. Well I beg to differ, because once we pass on we will all become ghosts/spirits. I guess he will figure that out when he passes away.

[vanburbian]

well, i know many disagree with me, but as an oncology nurse who also lives in the state of oregon~(which is the only state in the country where assissted suicide is legal) i definitely hold dearly the ability to choose the timing of death if that ever becomes necessary for me. my friends and family know how i feel, my doc knows how i feel, and though they dont all agree, they do respect my choice. death can be considered "imminent" as in , occuring that day, however, some people, many who have been patients of mine, choose to give up a few days of breathing in return for an end to life in their terms, while they are still able to say goodbye, or remain lucid enough to derive pleasure from the plans they have made. for myself, i want to be able to hear the music i love, smell the scents i treasure, feel the soothing weight and comfort from a beloved quilt,and behold my family in a semi alert state of mind. i choose to orchestrate the surroundings so that i can make it as wonderful as possible, as easy as possible, for the ones left here to continue on, knowing that it was the way i wanted it to be. this is, by far, the same general outlook the patients i have taken care of, who later chose this route, felt.

as far as the state law re: asst. suicide, many thousands have asked about it, and several hundred have the prescriptions, very few actually use them, average is ~30/year. read the studies, you'll find most concerns are addressed-i.e. education, financial status, etc. as not being valid opposition for people who think that we will end up selectively killing people who "dont fit" as far as that goes, i dont "fit", so i would be one of the first, but it's just not a realistic concern.

http://www.ohd.hr.state.or.us/chs/pas/ar-index.htm

thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in....

[tjhardin]

I often thought that Euthanasia was just morally wrong until my father was diagnoised with a terminal disease.Over the years of watching him suffer and struggle with every breath,I have changed my veiw.There is nothing that could hurt more than having your father look you in the eyes and beg to die.I feel a person should that right to say 'I have had enough',I truly believe Quality of life out weighs Quanity.

[ldymedc]

I have had much personal experience with this subject, I have lost both my parents to cancer at relatively young ages. My father had renal cell, mets to lung, and my mother had billiary duct CA. I also worked for several years on a medical unit that provided hospice care. Due to these experiences, I would say that for years, I was a rabid proponent of active assisted suicide for the terminally ill. There are many safeguards that can be used to prevent abuse.

The Netherlands has a very good law in place that is worth viewing. It has many protections against abuse, to include multiple reviews by several physician prior to granting the request. I have also looked at Oregon's law, it has a lot of similar qualites, and I find it comforting to know that intelligent compassionate people have worked so hard to increase quality of life for end stage terminal illnesses.

All the above being said, within the last year, I have done more research. I have discovered that in our society we chronically undertreat pain, for fear of addiction, abuse, legal issue of hastening death...etc. It is worth noting that the ANA has taken a position on administration of increasing dosages of pain medication for the terminally ill. In essence they have stated that increasing levels of pain medication should be given AS NEEDED to relieve pain in end stage terminal illness. With the recognition that a side effect of relieving the pain may hasten the patients death. This is appropriate therapy, as long as the PURPOSE is to relieve pain, and not to cause death. The AMA has a similar position. It is also worth noting, that no nurse or physician has been successfully sued for relieving a patients pain, with the possibility of hastening death, BUT a Nurse has been successfully sued for not relieving pain in a terminally ill patient, her feeling was that the ordered dose was too high, and would hasten death, the family sued successfully citing that she had increased the patients suffering by not giving prescribed meds....the patient had been on the dose prescribed prior to her care.

All of that being said, once again back to treatment of pain. Aggressive pain therapy should be of primary consideration in end stage care. Studies have been done to show that a patient in unrelenting pain is more likely to request assisted suicide (DUH), but when pain is treated appropriately, quality of life is increased and incidences of requests for assisted suicide drop to something like less than 5%, even in the face of imminent death...i.e. days, hours.

So perhaps instead of the soapbox that I used to be on concerning assisted suicide, I have changed to a soapbox of appropriate pain management. I don't think I am against assisted euthanasia, I simply feel that prior to that we should ensure that we have done EVERYTHING possible to make the patient comfortable. This may include making us a little UNCOMFORTABLE, by the fear that we hastened a patients death by giving narcotics....hard, but if we are truly patient's advocates, and not seeking to CAUSE death, but to relieve pain and provide comfort, we have given appropriate care. So the patient with resps of

:stone

[micro, RN]

very well spoken and obviously researched, idymedic

pain control even in non terminal patients is still an issue individually on the floors

but to not give pain relief to someone in such dire pain in the end stage of a terminal illness......

yes, you make such a point of our own discomfort......

area of growth professionally.....

micro

[renerian, BSN, RN]

I still think that if someone told me I was dying and chemo and radiation did not help and I was not in pain I would want someone to help me die quickly before I was in pain and before my family would watch me wither away to a skeleton. I watched both my grandmother and father die at a weight below 70 pounds. My dad wanted someone to help him die much earlier.

renerian

[nurse deb]

Very well said ldymedc! Do you think they would increase the dosage if they had to sit at the bedside and watch another human being die a slow agonizing death? I'm all for agressive pain therapy in end-stage terminal illness. Thanks for the interesting comments....

Deb

[ohbet]

Im reading all these posts that are pro-physician assissted euthansia,active eithansia. Why the hell isnt it legal in every state of the union. Its immoral,criminal and cruel that its not.

[BBelle]

ohbet, hi there. Long time no talk. he-he

Uhm, I don't know, but I think it should be legal in every state.

As stated before it is the patient who should decide what is best for them, not the government.

Just this evening in my Phlebotomy class we got off the subject and started talking about how people get treated when they are admitted to a nursing home. It is inhumane, and I sure as he$$ don't want to live out the remainder of my life in such a place.

Just my opinion though. Talk to ya later. Belle

[Jojo ford]

As a Student Nurse I was asked to explain to younger students how I knew not to press the Arrest alarm when I found a younger male patient dead. We were there for our first forays into a ward. How do you explain an understanding than can only come from the Holy Spirit?! A few years later I watched an RN (I was still a student) disconnect life support on a male with Malaria. Then I watched a man with terminal cancer become distressed because he was denied the right to refuse morphine. He wanted to stay lucid in his last couple of days to be able to talk to his wife and children. I was fortunate to be able to develop a strong sense of ethics during my student years by being exposed to a wide variety of circumstances relating to death, expected, wanted or not.

Humanist economic forces drive the increased push for commitment to supporting Voluntary Euthanisia. In Holland where it is legal the safe guards and strict protocol to ensure it is not abused has already become eroded and this comes from the mouths of locals.

Does anybody remember the movie "Logans Run"? The Ageist views that state the elderly represent a threat to economic stability and the typical "Quality of Life" argument used to justify Euthanasia as an acceptable solution is unacceptable.

My brother had Renal and Bowel cancer with Bony and Cerebral metastases and he refused to take morphine until the last few days. He died on September 8th, 2001

We were able to talk and console each other and most of the grieving was finished before he died.

I am please tor ead so many replies that indicate there are plenty of Nurses who have faith and can share their spirituality with their clients and colleagues.

I will never Accept that it is appropriate for someone else to assist in pre-empting natural death. Here in Queensland we have an Advance Health Directive which allows individuals to decide what measures are to be taken to sustain life and that is the best way to protect self determination.

And pain relief has ever been the bane of health care worker because we try to dictate to others what they need or want.

Peace to all and God will guide.

[ruthless]

hi fellow nurses - my first time on here. i am a very strong advocate for euthanasia - but in saying that i am also very wary that permitting this to occur in legislation requires very careful and considerate thought to minimise any potential abuses that those against euthanasia would warn about. I do not consider euthanasia to be unethical as i can think of many cases where the individual has desired it and it would have allowed them to do it their way surrounded by those they love - not in the healthcare systems way!!. I am watching with great interest two cases here in Australia involving individuals who have taken their own lives because their quality of life had deteriorated to such a low point. One of these had MND - and because euthanasia was not allowed - she had to unnecessarily end her own life much sooner before she lost the ability to use her arms. She spoke publicly on national TV had to do this alone because if anyone had been present they could have been charged with aiding and abetting a suicide. Do you think this is a dignified way to die??

In short i just wish to say that - I respect your choices and feelings about the matter - but when the time comes - can you please respect and support mine. thanks. i'll get off my soapbox now!!!