At my facility, some residents have tried to avoid care from employees who are African American as a matter of policy. Usually, they say, "I don't want a [unrepeatable] working with me!" When this happens, they get a looooong talk from management, who explains in no uncertain terms that they *will* be cared for by *whomever* happens to be assigned to them, and if this is unacceptable they are more than welcome to transfer to another facility.
At this same facility, I have some residents who say "I don't want a MAN working with me!" When this happens, the men get a looooong talk from management, who explains in no uncertain terms that residents have *rights* and we will need to juggle assignments and if this is unacceptable they are more than welcome to transfer to another facility.
I don't "get" why we don't tolerate the first form of discrimination but actively embrace the second. I've been told it isn't my problem (I'm female) and maybe I need some sensitivity training (patients' rights) or some Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (belief adjustment).
The traditional definition of discrimination says it can only take place against oppressed groups. It's only about what happens to people in the disempowered classes, like women. The traditional definition addresses groups.
The new definition involves "disparate treatment" or "disparate impact". This is intentionally treating an individual (like a male employee) less favorably than another individual (like a female employee) in the same circumstances. This definition addresses individuals.
In nursing practice, I'm seeing that a male nursing employee (CNA, in my case) is not allowed to work with the 97-pound person who has rights, and seems to end up with the 306 pound person who has C-diff. Looks like "disparate treatment" or "disparate impact" to me.
Is this ... ethical? I feel like I should be doing something, or saying something to somebody, hence this post.
actually, you did say that...here is your quote directly...
"If a woman has psyc issues over having been raped or something similar where she had good reason to be extremely uncomfortable with a male care giver then I will give it to them. Otherwise nope. They get told that he is a registered nurse with the same education and training as I. He is a professional and a very good nurse. I tell them I would have no quams with him caring me or any female member of my family. I would feel in very safe hands. He will treat you with respect and honor your privacy. We have a limited number of nurses and he is yours. If you want care you will get very good care from him."
"If a woman has....something similar where she had a good reason to be extremely uncomfortable with a male care giver then I will give it to them. Otherwise nope"
Who decides if it's a good reason? What may be a good reason to one pt, may be a stupid reason to a nurse. We're not caring for our ego's, we're caring for our pts, and ALL of their needs.
"If you want care you will get very good care from him."
So your'e saying that they must feel uncomfortable (since in this argument they have already stated that being cared for by a male makes them uncomfortable) or not receive care. Is that nursing? I hardly think so. And just to point out, that is what you said, and that is what I had clarified earlier.
I'm not pointing this out just to start a religious debate or to show I can use Google; I picked this passage very deliberately. THIS is why rape and abuse still happen. Power and control. THIS is why those of us who have lost that control at some point in our lives are so fierce about it now. I'm a nurse, I understand how obnoxious it can be when a patient (or family, in my unit's case) wants to change staffing for a reason I don't think is valid. But when it comes to deciding who gets to touch and enter my body, I don't give a DAMN about staffing. You want to compel or pressure me into a male caregiver? Fine. Make sure you've got a good psych resident on call that night, because you may be calling a consult.
ETA: I'm not literally blaming St Paul for my abuse. I'm referring to the fact that this attitude is still prevalent in our society.
Eliza... I think the issue you raise and the rationale/quote you pose may be a little more nuanced, but I agree (as I've mentioned in a previous post on this thread) that the patient's wishes should always be honored if at all possible.
This thread has certainly generated a lot of passionate discussion, and it's certainly evoked a plethora of perspectives... which have been helpful.
Again, I still haven't read every post ... yet, but has anyone suggested clarifying this patient preference from the outset... as a routine part of intake? It seems like some of this conflict/discomfort, etc could be avoided if this issue was dealt with in the same way that allergies or patient history are dealt with... by asking the patient from the outset if they have a preference for the gender of their health-care provider... and just make it a permanent part of their patient record... until such time as it may change. I think it might help set the patient more at ease knowing that their concerns on this issue do matter, and that it's the institution's wish to honor and be sensitive to those preferences/desires... without the patient having to defend, justify, or explain them... particularly when they may already be traumatized or experiencing less than perfect health or well-being in a hospital setting where they may not actually feel they are being heard, or in control.
This is silly. I haven't treated anyone unkindly. I just don't have to treat everyone with kid gloves.
I have also never said that only women have feminine traits or that only men have masculine ones. If you read my original quote, without all of the distortion, it says that we don't need to redefine these traits from their traditional spheres in order to let people do what they want.
I have also never said that only women have feminine traits or that only men have masculine ones. ...my original quote...says that we don't need to redefine these traits from their traditional spheres in order to let people do what they want.
Actually, I have read the entire thread, and it took me a little bit to get what you were trying to convey in the post in question. You made a valid point - but IMO you have just re-stated it much more clearly here. (Am I understanding your point correctly?)
This thread has been interesting - raised my BP a few points at time, but a learning experience none the less. It concerns me that some posts appear to be knee jerk emotional reactions w/out understanding others viewpoints. If we as professionals have this reaction to this issue, how can we expect our patients to repond any differently?
This is silly. I haven't treated anyone unkindly. I just don't have to treat everyone with kid gloves.
I have also never said that only women have feminine traits or that only men have masculine ones. If you read my original quote, without all of the distortion, it says that we don't need to redefine these traits from their traditional spheres in order to let people do what they want.
Cripes.
but the problem I (and other posters, I believe) have is, why are they feminine traits? To say that they are 'feminine' traits is to imply that they aren't masculine traits, and that IS sexist. Believing that someone has certain personality qualities simply because of their sex is the same as believe someone has certain personality qualities simply because of their race. Furthermore, when you argue that these traits are 'feminine', and then fail to exhibit those traits when you speak to people "what, I have to treat you like my pt now?", you come across as presumptious and rude. Pts are treated a particular way not because they are pts, but because they are PEOPLE, and all people should be treated the same.
Specializes in Military, Public Health, Surg, Oncology.
I was educated while in the military (the Navy paid for my schooling). My first assignment out of school was an oncology unit (way, way long ago). I was the only male student in my class and experienced a lot of discrimination from my fellow nurses (simply because I was male) and was actually told by the DON at at my first job that she didn't believe that men could be nurses and that the reason was they had a "different" mindset (how's that for reverse discrimination). The hospital had two male nurses. Me and a nurse that worked in the OR.
I didn't want to do an OB rotation but it was required and I went and did what I needed to do. The nurse manager of the OB unit would have preferred to have me keeping the utility room neat and well stocked and move patients in and out of their rooms. It took a lot of hard work to make sure that I got the training that I needed.
When became a nurse manager for my unit I was met with a lot of resistance (again, why would a guy get the job when there were a lot of women who had been there longer). It wasn't my choice, it was the choice of the unit manager that supervised the floor I worked. That caused even more problems between me and my colleagues. The fact that if asked to be charge on a shift they often refused never came into their thinking about why I was promoted.
In all the years I was working as a nurse, and even today volunteering for an HIV/AIDS clinic, I've only ever had one patient say they didn't want a male nurse and only wanted to be assigned to female nurses. That wasn't a problem. I switched patients with another nurse and that was it.
I didn't take that personally. I realized that being in the hospital was enough of an invasion of a patient's sense of privacy that the least we could do was to respect their feelings. Frequently older patients a strong preference about not wanting a male nurse doing things that made them uncomfortable. I always want the patient to be comfortable and would never insist on taking care of someone that preferred a female nurse. I realized that was just the way these older patients felt and it was fine with me. I would still answer their calls, find their nurse for them or do whatever I could do to make them comfortable even if they didn't want me as their nurse.
One thing my experience as a male nurse has provided for me was a clear understanding of prejudice. I worked twice as hard as any other nurse on my unit to show that I could do anything they could do and just as well and that I had the same capability to be empathetic and caring for a patient. I was very disappointed to see people who had experienced the "glass ceiling" take out their frustration on me.
Being stubborn certainly helped because I wouldn't back down if someone treated me unfairly but I also refused to work in an environment that was so poorly managed that tolerated that kind of behavior. The nursing shortage makes jobs a lot easier to get and in that environment I would simply resign and take another job. I just wouldn't tolerate it -- especially in 2007.
My patients all appreciated my care, professionalism, and most importantly my respect for their feelings. If there was an issue about something that needed to be done I would often ask, would you prefer one of the other nurses to do this, but 9 times out of 10 the answer was no. Sometimes, such as cath care for a woman, I would offer to have another nurse handle that part of their care and not be insulted if they decided that would make them feel more comfortable.
Finally, the issue of race. I worked in a hospital just outside of DC. All of our aids were black and many of the nurses has been aids, gone back to school and were RNs on the same floor. Whenever I ran into a patient who didn't want a black aid or nurse working with them that is when I had "the talk" with them. They could choose to have a female nurse but unless they had a valid reason for not wanting a black nurse and only if that reason included a problem with patient care would I listen. There is a line to be drawn.
I am lucky to have spent most of my career working where I didn't have patients that came in one day, had surgery and were gone by the time you came back on the next afternoon. Having that relationship, being able to teach, encourage, and have the experience of watching a patient get to the point where they could go home was phenomenal. I really think some of the younger generation of nurses missed out.
but has anyone suggested clarifying this patient preference from the outset... as a routine part of intake? It seems like some of this conflict/discomfort, etc could be avoided if this issue was dealt with in the same way that allergies or patient history are dealt with... by asking the patient from the outset if they have a preference for the gender of their health-care provider... and just make it a permanent part of their patient record... .
Great idea Noah. This would be no problem for the girls since most medical personnel are female. But for the guys it is practically impossible for the same reason... most providers are female. In some places exclusively female. I had that very issue recently where the urologist was male but the staff was all female.
But still a great idea, if we could only make it happen. :angryfire
but the problem I (and other posters, I believe) have is, why are they feminine traits? To say that they are 'feminine' traits is to imply that they aren't masculine traits, and that IS sexist. Believing that someone has certain personality qualities simply because of their sex is the same as believing someone has certain personality qualities simply because of their race. Furthermore, when you argue that these traits are 'feminine', and then fail to exhibit those traits when you speak to people "what, I have to treat you like my pt now?", you come across as presumptious and rude. Pts are treated a particular way not because they are pts, but because they are PEOPLE, and all people should be treated the same.
(emphasis added)
Thank you... again, kmcnelly. You seem to be "rescuing" me again and again :1luvu: Another favorite Biblical reference that I've always treasured that sort of relates to this issue is found in Psalm 18:35 where David, the warrior/king of Israel who, of course is always known for his bold response to the challenge of the giant Goliath reflects: "...thy gentleness hath made me great." (not His grace to enable him to prevail in all his military exploits).
I would also like to agree with Suesquatch, however, in her suggestion that some traits are probably either more yin (intrinsically feminine) or yang (intrinsically masculine). I would just like to add to that what I believe is a fairly widely accepted observation: that we ALL (male and female) have both a lunar (feminine) and solar (male) nature which complement each other. How these "play out" in our individual personalities is what gives us our overall character/personality.
About treating patients well - you mean to tell me that you and kmc have never, ever had a patient to whom you were "nice" simply because if you told them what you really thought of them you'd be fired? Like the one who, when her room mate was dying, kept yelling that she wanted cold water when she had four glasses on her dresser?
There is a difference between the real world and the bedside. There has to be.
And quoting folk tales codified as God's word to criticise me doesn't make your point, nor does it make you gentle. It makes you passive-aggressive.
Discrimination = disparate treatment or disparate impact. I work in Long Term Care where, about once a month, I get to stand at the bedside and watch someone I've known for a year drown in her own secretions while I give Roxanol every two hours and try to comfort her family. I mean no disrespect to Suesquatch, but for me the bedside can be waaaaaaaay too real.
I'm a female LPN doing bedside care, and I also supervise the work of CNAs. I'm seeing people who happen to be male employees being treated differently than people who happen to be female employees.
Sometimes the people who treat men differently are female residents/patients/clients/customers who might have abuse issues I'm not aware of, or they have modesty issues which they willingly express, or they have anxiety issues about receiving good care because they have a gender-based stereotype and don't believe a male can care about or understand them the way a female can.
Sometimes, the people who treat men differently are female colleagues, who for whatever reason wrinkle their noses when admitting a female, and say; "You don't want a MAN working with you, do you?" I agree with NoahNS that a clarification of preferences would be helpful at the outset in theory, but my reality is discouraging.
Sometimes, the people who treat men differently are female managers who won't hire a male because of the above issues, and more.
- romantic entanglements
- romantic breakups
- allegations of abuse/neglect
Sometimes, the people who treat men differently are family members who fear any or all of the above.
Sometimes, I also see people who happen to be Black, or Latino, or Bosnian, and I know what to do. Educate, educate, educate, and document complaints and racial epithets. Sometimes, I can't assign specific individuals to specific residents, and sometimes I, as the only white female on the hall, get to do personal care. With minorities, I know what to do.
With men, I don't know what to do. Sometimes, a few residents and colleagues and managers look at me when I bring up the subject and say; "They're MEN". End of argument. I guess I'm just intuitively supposed to know that "All white men own corporations and meet weekly with David Rockefeller a the Patriarchy Club to make all the decisions for our society".
The guys I work with say "It's okay" and "It doesn't matter" just like the minorities I work with say "It's okay" and "It doesn't matter" when the hate language shows up. The worst part, with minorities, is "We're used to it."
As a daughter with a Dad, and as a wife, and as a mother with SONS, I just can't get into the "us vs. them" mentality. It isn't okay, and it does matter. I'm a charge nurse, which means lots of responsibility and little authority, so I guess it's back to school for me.
Should I join the American Association for Men in Nursing? I'd feel like a party crasher ...
suesquatch "and quoting folk tales codified as god's word to criticise me doesn't make your point, nor does it make you gentle. it makes you passive-aggressive. "
i think the point was that the traits mentioned in the bible as the fruits of the spirit are neither male or female - that anyone can be gentle, kind, etc. i have agreed with many of your posts - and in fact your original post in question. society does consider these traits as feminine - but god does not (as seen in the scripture kcm quoted). i think it's fine for you to disagree - but making fun of the bible and calling it folk tales isn't going to endear anyone of faith to your argument.
as far as someone not being gentle because they use scripture to make their point -the bible calls us to speak the truth in love, and admonish one another. jesus was loving, kind, and patient, and loved everyone including sinners - but he didn't mince words when someone was doing something wrong. jesus told sinners to "go and sin no more", and even turned tables over and rebuked the people selling things in god's house (church). however, i don't think kcm was trying to rebuke anyone - i think kcm was trying to point out these traits are universal even though society places them as feminine.
i'm not trying to attack you. i'm the mediator in my family (ha) and just thought i could maybe help.
Since I joined this forum I've noticed that one of the hot button topics concerned intimate care of women by men. Since I have my own anxieties about care from the opposite sex, I can relate. I am not alone as some of the heated posts here and on other threads can attest.
Leslie, the most emotional post I have yet to see from you is right here on this thread. I mean that in a good way, and I support you 100%.
Growing up, I just assumed it was OK for a female nurse (back in the day when a real nurse worked in a doctor's office) to expose and touch your most private areas in the course of medical treatment. I also assumed that male nurses did the same without restriction. Even then, it did seem strange to segregate the sexes (bathrooms, showers) and then go into a healthcare setting and be expected to drop the idea of modesty around the opposite sex. It seemed odd to me then to have to do that and think nothing of it. I more or less thought that was just the way it was.
As a teenager, I encountered a very unfortunate incident when I was in the hospital. I had the bad manners to allow an erection to occur during a bed bath and the female nurse's response was to strike me in the testicles to teach me a lesson. The resulting injury leaves me unable to have children. It also gives me a huge problem with accepting intimate care from females even after 34 years.
I have heard it said in medical circles that the one way to stop an erection in a male pt was to inflict some form of pain to the genitals as a reverse stimulus, like "thumping" or "flicking" either the member or testicles. I've seen it mentioned here a couple of times. Maybe some nurses don't think thumping or flicking are enough and resort to using an object or a fist to strike with. Strange, I have never seen this "procedure" mentioned in any practice manuals so I am left to assume that it's not an officially recognized treatment. But I have heard it talked about so many times among nurses and I have heard men tell of it being done to them. Maybe it's one of those "they don't teach this in school but try it anyway" kind of things.
I think that if a female wants to work with male patients in a healthcare setting she should learn the realities of the male sex. If she is uncomfortable with that, then she should get into an area where she doesn't have such access to men. Women should know that we men don't always get an erection out of arousal, it can happen just by drawing attention to that part of the body. We are embarrassed immensely when it does happen at the wrong time. There is no reason to harm a male patient for something he has no direct control of. I mean, it's not like wiggling your toes or sticking out your tongue, the control is not that direct. That patient is giving his total trust to the nurse so let's not give him reason not to in the future.
I am not saying that all or most female nurses feel a need to harm a male patient for this reason, but a few do. We men accept the realities of the female sex without feeling to need to do them harm.
Back on topic, when I was looking at a career in healthcare, I worked as an orderly at a hospital while in the first year of prereqs for nursing school. It was quite an eye opener to be told that my sex limited what I could do to female patients while my female coworkers didn't have such limitations. I was insulted actually. Then to find out that it was that way throughout all of medicine. Then the hostility began when I actually got accepted into nursing school. See ya'll later, I'll just go where I am welcome.
In my single days as a young single police officer, I had many occasions to date nurses. Eventually in the course of getting to know my nurse girlfriend, the subject of initmate care of men by women came up. I would ask "Do you really think it's professional of you to do this to your male patients?" The answer was along the lines of "Sure, I am a professional." Then I would ask "Would you allow a male nurse to perform intimate cares on you?" Funny how the answer was never a simple "no". It was always a very reinforced NO like "hell no", "no", "no way jose", "over my dead body", etc. Very assertive and emotional. To which I naturally asked "If you find it so objectionable, why would you do it to your patient?" Never got a valid answer, just the usual "that's just the way it is."
I've known nurses who would meet a man in a club or bar, know him barely an hour, know little more than his first name, yet take him home and have sex. But they would never allow a male healthcare professional to do any kind of personal care on them.
Something that I have long questioned is how can some female nurses consider it so proper to enjoy their intimate access to male patients, yet find it so wrong when they are the patient and the caregiver is male. How can any person do something to another person that they would find objectionable if done to them? I really don't care if a nurse, when she becomes a patient, elects to choose the sex of her caregiver. But it is unprofessional when the female nurse is in a management or authority position and makes the decision to not hire males, or limits where they work or what they do, or harrasses them. I have said it before, professionalism and discrimination cannot coexist.
I don't have any problem now in refusing intimate care from women now that I have seen the other side of the coin. It used to bother me, but not anymore.
I have observed that the disparate system we now have in place leads to all kinds of problems. Bad enough is stress among coworkers. But it is really bad when it negatively affects the healthcare of men. The unfettered access that female personnel have with male patients leads to a loss of empathy when treating men. They expose men so frequently that they think nothing of it. If they think nothing of it, then they treat it as if it's nothing, which in turn deemphasizes the need to provide privacy, support, or comfort to an embarrassed patient. A female nurse might not let that happen with female patients, because she can see herself in that situation. I've seen that so many times.
I am going to get something else off my chest here. Even though my experience as a healthcare worker is limited, I have spent a lot of years doing off duty police security in a hospital. Which meant that I spent a lot of time at a nurses station in the ER. I amazes me to no end how much infatuation female medical personnel have with the male genitalia. Out of supposedly professional people I heard almost constant reference to what patient so and so had between his legs, or what a coworker had, or even what I have. If a certain patient was well endowed, the other nurses or techs would make some excuse to get to him to have a look. If he wasn't well endowed, they would say something like "how does he do anything with THAT, go look and see what you think." There have been examples on this forum about women checking out men. That one about whoa inappropriate about a year and a half ago brought me out of my lurking mode. The idea about the doc who checks out his anesthesized female patient's breasts doesn't hold a candle to what the women are doing to the guys. Even the nurses I've dated told me stories about how they would check out a guy when he was under.
I know many male docs and nurses and I have NEVER, EVER heard them talk about their female patients. They might talk about women in general, but will never cross the line and talk inappropriately about a female patient. One of my best friends is a retired Navy doc, now in civilian practice, who talks of the greatest joys of life being flying, sex, and drinking beer. I have turned up many a shot of JD with him but no matter how drunk he gets he absolutely will not talk about a patient. I have a male nurse neighbor who can get pretty doggone crude, but you never hear him talk bad about any female patient he has had. He just won't go there.
Makes me wonder if the limitations should be reversed.
This would be no problem for the girls since most medical personnel are female. But for the guys it is practically impossible for the same reason... most providers are female. In some places exclusively female. I had that very issue recently where the urologist was male but the staff was all female. 
:angryfire
treysdaddy08
190 Posts
actually, you did say that...here is your quote directly...
"If a woman has psyc issues over having been raped or something similar where she had good reason to be extremely uncomfortable with a male care giver then I will give it to them. Otherwise nope. They get told that he is a registered nurse with the same education and training as I. He is a professional and a very good nurse. I tell them I would have no quams with him caring me or any female member of my family. I would feel in very safe hands. He will treat you with respect and honor your privacy. We have a limited number of nurses and he is yours. If you want care you will get very good care from him."
"If a woman has....something similar where she had a good reason to be extremely uncomfortable with a male care giver then I will give it to them. Otherwise nope"
Who decides if it's a good reason? What may be a good reason to one pt, may be a stupid reason to a nurse. We're not caring for our ego's, we're caring for our pts, and ALL of their needs.
"If you want care you will get very good care from him."
So your'e saying that they must feel uncomfortable (since in this argument they have already stated that being cared for by a male makes them uncomfortable) or not receive care. Is that nursing? I hardly think so. And just to point out, that is what you said, and that is what I had clarified earlier.