Does the shot mess with your DNA?

[Floor_Nurse]

The way that this Covid vaccine works is quite different from the flu shot. The Covid vax. is not a (dead) bacteria or virus being injected into your body. (With Pfizer & Moderna) RNA (called messenger RNA) that's been coded in a lab goes into your arm. The RNA has instructions, or a code, that gets deposited on the cell. The ribosomes of the cell make a spike protein. It looks similar to the spike protein on the surface of the actual Corona virus. Then your body is supposed to make antibodies (antigens) that goes after the spike protein and neutralize it. 

The problem is that this has not been tested in any long-term studies, so, this is more of an experiment. We don't know whether or not the DNA gets permanently changed (possibly bad). We're talking about something that's not supposed to be in your body (made in a lab) that can bind to the surface of your cells and possibly may not be able to be reversed. 

Also, since the drug is still being evaluated for long term adverse effects, pregnancy, etc., the FDA would not license the drug, but instead, put out as EUA... Emergency Use Authorization.

[guest1163268]

I think Subee and Jacko are shaping the facts to suit their narratives. It's become very evident to me that far right wingers and conspiracy theorists etc have a problem with accepting when they are wrong, unlike us, who are ashamed to be wrong and immediately set about correcting the deficit. They appear to be so insecure that they are more ashamed of being wrong than being a fool eg masking, social distancing etc. 

For them, it's better to be dead than be thought of as stupid, which when you think about it, is the epitomy of stupidity! Apparently, it signifies weakness of some sort, which in my book is again the definition of weakness! 

Either way, it must be a natural selection thing! My Swedish Grandad always says, that a fool and his money/power is soon parted but an educated man can never have his education taken away. Don't know what your grandfather says, Macawake? How about yours GrumpyRN, my Scottish Grandad just gives the two fingers salute accompanied by 'Up Yours' ????

[Shelby91]

18 hours ago, nursej22 said:

So 8 out of 10 people that die from COVID deserved it? They should have led better lives, had better genes, lived closer to healthy food and further from pollution , and paid for their insulin?

Now do the seemingly healthy people who are suffering from long-term covid, you know, brain fog, headaches, scarred lungs and hearts. Do they deserve that as well?

How about the health care personnel suffering from PTSD? Are they just inflating the numbers of deaths they've witnessed, the times they had serve as proxy family so patients didn't die alone?  There is a thread on this forum about COVID nurses feeling exhausted? Perhaps you should post there and tell them what they've lived through is just not that bad. 

WOW, noone said they deserved to die..I love how you take my statements and twist them to make your argument..I'm sorry to the healthcare workers with PTSD, that's sad. I'm really relieved that none of my coworkers or myself have been stricken with PTSD from the numerous patients we've lost on our covid unit.

[CABGpatch_RN, BSN]

1 hour ago, Shelby91 said:

WOW, noone said they deserved to die..I love how you take my statements and twist them to make your argument..I'm sorry to the healthcare workers with PTSD, that's sad. I'm really relieved that none of my coworkers or myself have been stricken with PTSD from the numerous patients we've lost on our covid unit.

Oh for cripes sake.  You are a piece of work.  A sick sick individual.  You are able to single handedly minimize each and every individual who has been touched by this pandemic around the world - including those of your own profession.

I don't think you are capable of recognizing when someone is having a difficult time.  It's like this is all a joke to you?  After delivering awful news to a family member probably over the phone, do you giggle when you hang up.  That's how I picture you.  You probably do giggle, if not out loud, in your twisted mind.  I doubt very much that all of your co-workers sit around enjoying themselves with dark humor when it comes to your patients suffering the effects of covid.

You're just sick.  You would not last beyond a shift with me and my co-workers.  We can weed out ones like you pretty quickly.

[MunoRN, RN]

1 hour ago, Shelby91 said:

WOW, noone said they deserved to die..I love how you take my statements and twist them to make your argument..I'm sorry to the healthcare workers with PTSD, that's sad. I'm really relieved that none of my coworkers or myself have been stricken with PTSD from the numerous patients we've lost on our covid unit.

I'll be optimistic and assume you misspoke, but maybe you could clarify if you meant something different.  

What you said was "the numbers have been inflated", followed by "noone wants to say that 8 times out of 10" the patient was obese, old, or had preexisting health issues.  The suggestion being that Covid isn't as bad as it's made out to be because most Covid deaths shouldn't count because they are old, fat, etc.

And if that is what you meant then yes, you have a pathological indifference towards the plight of others.

[HRoark64, BSN]

Curious1997 said:

Bloody hell, don't hold anything back! 

How do you treat patients falling into those categories when you have them? 

I'm a young person and even I understand that older people deteriorate, get slower and acquire age related illnesses just like everything else, but they should still be respected and treated with dignity because knowledge and experience doesn't deteriorate but actually gets refined into better context as you acquire more wisdom. 

You need to start looking at the elderly as a fount of knowledge and someone to learn from. You will be older someday, let's hope that you don't get judged the same way? 

Curious1997 said:

I think Subee and Jacko are shaping the facts to suit their narratives. It's become very evident to me that far right wingers and conspiracy theorists etc have a problem with accepting when they are wrong, unlike us, who are ashamed to be wrong and immediately set about correcting the deficit. They appear to be so insecure that they are more ashamed of being wrong than being a fool eg masking, social distancing etc. 

For them, it's better to be dead than be thought of as stupid, which when you think about it, is the epitomy of stupidity! Apparently, it signifies weakness of some sort, which in my book is again the definition of weakness! 

Either way, it must be a natural selection thing! My Swedish Grandad always says, that a fool and his money/power is soon parted but an educated man can never have his education taken away. Don't know what your grandfather says, Macawake? How about yours GrumpyRN, my Scottish Grandad just gives the two fingers salute accompanied by 'Up Yours'

Wow...lots of they and us speak.  How do you assess patients with your head that far up your butt?  Impressive.  

I find it interesting that the left - the primary anti-vax and pro-choice crowd - is now full force behind a vaccine and doesn't seem to acknowledge the right of anyone to refuse it.  Serious mental gymnastics.  

Before you throw out the right wing extremist, know that I'm neither.  If voting worked it would've been outlawed by now.  Your willingness to marginalize the thoughts, opinions, and questions of others will be the downfall of our society. 

[HRoark64, BSN]

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

Half a million deaths annually from smoking - no mandated vaccine or prophylactic treatment

100k from alcohol

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

841k from overdoses since 1999 - all this requires is removing something from society, not creating a new treatment

With all that out there, all the virtue signalers who suddenly care about the loss of human life go ahead and sit on your hands instead of typing snarky replies.

Obese/hypertensive/generally unhealthy people don't deserve to die any more than someone who stockpiles gas cans and cardboard in their home deserves to see it go up in flames.  They also aren't absolved of creating the conditions conducive to a single spark (or ailment) wiping everything out. 

PTSD - sssshhhhh.  Some healthcare workers definitely have it now.  I have it from six trips to the sandbox from my first career.  Kids growing up in Chicago have it from daily gang violence.  Lots of people have their trials and tribulations.  Nobody's exempt from terrible experiences and the effects that follow. 

Just like we have more data on covid now than we did a year ago, a year from the first vaccines we will also have more data on the outcomes.  Let's not break into camps just yet and instead stay ready to change our minds when new facts are available.  Remember that we all have to live together...vaccinated or not.

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

HRoark64 said:

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

Half a million deaths annually from smoking - no mandated vaccine or prophylactic treatment

100k from alcohol

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

 

841k from overdoses since 1999 - all this requires is removing something from society, not creating a new treatment

Which of those is an infectious virus that has rampaged through the population the way COVID has?

As for prophylactic treatment for smoking, how long has the campaign against smoking gone on? And it's regulated- can't be sold to anyone under 18 (21 in some states), smoking cessation classes are offered by a number of organizations.

Alcohol- again, regulated. Bartenders are not only allowed but expected to cut people off when they show signs of intoxication. Grassroots organizations like MADD and SADD exist. Oh, and legal recourse for those who break the law for selling to underage or those convicted of a DUI.

Drugs- again, laws exist. Rehab is an option. Not infectious.

[HRoark64, BSN]

8 minutes ago, Rose_Queen said:

Which of those is an infectious virus that has rampaged through the population the way COVID has?

As for prophylactic treatment for smoking, how long has the campaign against smoking gone on? And it's regulated- can't be sold to anyone under 18 (21 in some states), smoking cessation classes are offered by a number of organizations.

Alcohol- again, regulated. Bartenders are not only allowed but expected to cut people off when they show signs of intoxication. Grassroots organizations like MADD and SADD exist. Oh, and legal recourse for those who break the law for selling to underage or those convicted of a DUI.

Drugs- again, laws exist. Rehab is an option. Not infectious.

None of them are infectious viruses like covid.  They are all causes of a massive number of deaths annually and have been for some time.  I'm tired of 'loss of life' being dragged into the vax conversation since we haven't been concerned with it thus far.  

My question was about thoughts of the risk/reward of a vaccine for which we lack long-term data - especially if it becomes a condition of employment or requirement for travel.  I also listed several abject failures of our federal government's efforts to do right by us.  Also worth considering is that the PCR test amplification was reduced to <30 cycles right around the time the vaccine was rolled out versus the 35+ it was when testing began.  I'm not implying the numbers were inflated - I'm pointing out that if we modify an important variable at the same time as the vaccine is rolled out, it may make it difficult to discern whether reduced infections are coming from increased vaccinations or the new testing method.  

[MunoRN, RN]

HRoark64 said:

Really interesting thread and pretty salient given the vaccine rollout at the hospitals I tech at while in school and vax/no vax conversations in class.  I'm interested in everyone/anyone's thoughts on the risk/reward of the treatment.

The latest article I can find says we've had about 30 million confirmed cases, so roughly 9% of the population caught it.  550k or so deaths comes out to a 1.8% mortality rate of the positive cases and  0.17% for the entire population.  These numbers may change at some point given that the WHO recently said the excessively high PCR cycles used at first caused positive tests that may not have met a viral threshold.  Does the entire population need a treatment when we only had about a 10% infection rate which may have been overstated by inaccurate testing in the first place?  How about if/when the mortality rate is adjusted to reflect comorbidities that played a greater role in death than covid?  Of course, the mortality rate could always end up being higher if the false positives due to inaccurate PCR testing are taken out of the total infection number.  If anyone has updated info, please share. 

I'm not trying to understate the importance of public health or the utility of the first run with mRNA therapy that may be the foundation of very useful treatments in the future.  It just doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck considering the lack of long term testing that's been done, the $ that's gone into it, and the risk in the first place.  

Lastly let's consider other massive efforts from the federal government:

War on terror, war on drugs, war on poverty, bailout of banks instead of homeowners in 2008, 500% higher healthcare insurance premiums since the ACA passed, trans fat push in the 70's, criminal justice reform in the 90's, AMTRAK...

A 1.8% case-fatality-rate in a transmissible disease that spreads relatively easily is not small.  If allowed to freely spread through the US population, that translates to about 6.5 million deaths, and that's from just it's first pass through the full population.

PCR tests, regardless of the number of cycles used, aren't known to produce any significant number of false positives, they only magnify what is actually there, they don't produce Covid rna where it doesn't exist.  The statement from the WHO you're referencing was regarding the antigen tests, not active Covid detection testing.  The number of cycles used for PCR testing hasn't actually changed, every test uses a different number of cycles to achieve comparable magnification between different tests.   And of course if the number of cases is falsely elevated, then that makes the case-fatality-rate even higher, which isn't reassuring in terms of whether Covid should be taken seriously. 

[MunoRN, RN]

HRoark64 said:

Wow...lots of they and us speak.  How do you assess patients with your head that far up your butt?  Impressive.  

I find it interesting that the left - the primary anti-vax and pro-choice crowd - is now full force behind a vaccine and doesn't seem to acknowledge the right of anyone to refuse it.  Serious mental gymnastics.  

Before you throw out the right wing extremist, know that I'm neither.  If voting worked it would've been outlawed by now.  Your willingness to marginalize the thoughts, opinions, and questions of others will be the downfall of our society. 

I don't think anyone is trying to marginalize anyone's decisions regarding vaccines, it seems what is poorly tolerated is spreading misinformation and mischaracterizing both the vaccines and what we're vaccinating against, which then mislead people in the decisions they make regarding vaccines.

As a society we take steps to mitigate all of those health risks as well as to mitigate the risks they pose to others, I'm not sure how advocating that we do the same when it comes to Covid is hypocritical.  

 

[guest1163268]

3 hours ago, HRoark64 said:

None of them are infectious viruses like covid.  They are all causes of a massive number of deaths annually and have been for some time.  I'm tired of 'loss of life' being dragged into the vax conversation since we haven't been concerned with it thus far.  

* I'm with you on this. My concern is that my family members doesn't get it because my mom feeds me practically daily and I can borrow money from my dad and the grocery store and liquor store workers because I need those things. Oh! I forgot the mechanics who keeps my cars running so I can go to work and the people in Admin who keeps the hospital open. Oh, wait, now that I have thought about it, I want all the service workers and the professionals that I go to alone, to stay alive and the pilots. Fff it, let them all live! 

3 hours ago, HRoark64 said:

My question was about thoughts of the risk/reward of a vaccine for which we lack long-term data - especially if it becomes a condition of employment or requirement for travel.  I also listed several abject failures of our federal government's efforts to do right by us.  Also worth considering is that the PCR test amplification was reduced to <30 cycles right around the time the vaccine was rolled out versus the 35+ it was when testing began.  I'm not implying the numbers were inflated - I'm pointing out that if we modify an important variable at the same time as the vaccine is rolled out, it may make it difficult to discern whether reduced infections are coming from increased vaccinations or the new testing method.  

* You didn't mention the increased deaths, any thoughts on that? 

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

19 hours ago, Curious1997 said:

I think Subee and Jacko are shaping the facts to suit their narratives. It's become very evident to me that far right wingers and conspiracy theorists etc have a problem with accepting when they are wrong, unlike us, who are ashamed to be wrong and immediately set about correcting the deficit. They appear to be so insecure that they are more ashamed of being wrong than being a fool eg masking, social distancing etc. 

For them, it's better to be dead than be thought of as stupid, which when you think about it, is the epitomy of stupidity! Apparently, it signifies weakness of some sort, which in my book is again the definition of weakness! 

Either way, it must be a natural selection thing! My Swedish Grandad always says, that a fool and his money/power is soon parted but an educated man can never have his education taken away. Don't know what your grandfather says, Macawake? How about yours GrumpyRN, my Scottish Grandad just gives the two fingers salute accompanied by 'Up Yours' ????

Can you please cite where I ever said it was better to be dead than stupid?  I actually feel sorry for stupid people because life is much harder for them.