Doctoral degree to become an NP???

Published

The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

Specializes in ER; CCT.
the confusion claim was a red herring when it was used against the psychologists & optometrists at the turn of the century, against the DO until the 1960s, against the podiatrists into the 1980s, and now against the DNPs. It is nothing but an ego trip and a vain attempt to claim authority over an academic title and to continue the charade of the physician as the "captain of the ship" (a long outdated belief with no place in reality or in modern collaborative health care).

Very well said

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Specializes in ER; CCT.
Mayo does have a policy regarding nonphysician use of the title "doctor". It is restricted to DPM's, PsyD's, and OD's. We don't have any DC's working here. No one else can use that title in the clinical setting. It was just passed in October. I was at the meeting.

Has anyone else heard of this phatom policy before at the Mayo clinic? I called the Arizona Mayo Clinic and talked with Human Resources, then employee services and they have no clue about any such policy. Then I called Arizona State, Nursing and spoke with their DNP program support team. Nope, no one has heard of this either. Then, I called the main Rochester Mayo hub and spoke with Joyce at Public Relations. She hasn't heard of any such policy at Mayo that precludes DNP's from using the title "doctor." Lastly, my inquiry was left with a senior nursing administrator via the Media relations.

Although I haven't given up on the very remote possibility you are actually telling the truth, I am curious, however. Is this a real policy or yet another fabrication you have made up to push your own anti nursing and anti DNP agenda?

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Specializes in ER; CCT.
What if DNP programs follow a curriculum identical to that of the medical school curriculum and nurses are allowed to do residency??? I wonder what excuses MD's will come up with then?? I think that is a possibility in the future.

It's important to remember, as an example, that dentists, optometrists and podiatrists all have different training pathways than physicians. The DNP pathway is also quite different. Physicians, however, do not have a problem with the former professions because there are no adverse economic impacts on their practice related to those who practice podiatry, dentistry and optometry.

With DNP's, however, there are substantial economic implications as advance practice nurses provide health services that are nursing-based and do overlap the practice of medicine as much as what physicians do, overlap the practice of nursing. Moreover, physicians and physician-based groups are loosing control over who and which professions may do what in the health care arena. This is evident by the fact that 23 states now have indpendent NP practice and growing and NP's may prescribe in all 50 states.

Medicine's ever increasing erosion over controlling the failed sick care system which they have been charged as "captain of the ship" for the last 100 years or so is definitley taking a toll on their credibility as a profession. As an example, I am not sure where physicians rate on the "most trusted" scale, but I would guess that nursing is a bit higher and the reasons are clear. Consequently, physicians and those assistants who are dependent upon physicians for their living will fight tooth and nail to negatively impact the professional development of DNP's, as evidenced by the anti-DNP rhetoric on this board.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.
Has anyone else heard of this phatom policy before at the Mayo clinic? I called the Arizona Mayo Clinic and talked with Human Resources, then employee services and they have no clue about any such policy. Then I called Arizona State, Nursing and spoke with their DNP program support team. Nope, no one has heard of this either. Then, I called the main Rochester Mayo hub and spoke with Joyce at Public Relations. She hasn't heard of any such policy at Mayo that precludes DNP's from using the title "doctor." Lastly, my inquiry was left with a senior nursing administrator via the Media relations.

Although I haven't given up on the very remote possibility you are actually telling the truth, I am curious, however. Is this a real policy or yet another fabrication you have made up to push your own anti nursing and anti DNP agenda?

First of all human resource and Public realations would be the last to know. You shouldstart with the medical staff office. I suppse that some of the stuff that the DNP program should teach is something about hosptial politics.

I take exception to you constantly making this a person attack on people who disagree with you. Both the PA's here are supportive of nurses, they just question the pathway we are taking, and there are many nurses that question that. Myself included. It's this kind of attitude that feeds the anomosity that is out there against any advancement that nurses are making. Both of these Pa's have been around for a long time.

I admire your passion, but stop taking it so personlly. Start being active in the politics of the DNP and start lobying for more clinical hours. Don't depend on that external confirmation that you are worth something, by having to be called Dr. I personlly belive that we should follow the european model, and only proffesors should be called Dr. if it's that important to you, start working with your local NP asociation to start an education program to explain the levels of provider to the public, and include all levels of Dr's. start lobying for some form of national standard of practice. Be constructive.

And yes before someone mentions it, I happen to be married to a PA, but I've been an NP student, and if decide in the future that I want to be a clniician instead of a clinical educator, I'll go back to NP school.

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Specializes in ER; CCT.
First of all human resource and Public realations would be the last to know. You shouldstart with the medical staff office. I suppse that some of the stuff that the DNP program should teach is something about hosptial politics.

So I take it you have not heard of this policy either.

I take exception to you constantly making this a person attack on people who disagree with you.

I would not characterize this as a personal attack any more than I would say that the individual in question has repeatedly lied about facts. In case you have forgot or didn't read that far back, this individual has previously misrepresented that a bill was to be passed shortly that would make it "illegal" for DNP's to use the title "doctor." This of course was completely false. Now, there is a phantom policy related to the same which no one at the Mayo Clinic seems to have any idea of its existence.

Both the PA's here are supportive of nurses, they just question the pathway we are taking, and there are many nurses that question that.

Give me a break. Saying this particular PA is supportive of nurses with the anti nursing rhetoric and misrepresentation of facts is like saying our economy is in great shape. It that's your belief, more power to you.

Both of these Pa's have been around for a long time.

I don't think the one has been around long enough to know how to verify material before passing it off as fact.

I admire your passion, but stop taking it so personlly.

Thanks, and when individuals with anti nursing agendas post and misrepresent facts, I will take it personally and respond. If that's too much for you to handle, then I suggest encouraging truthful and honest dialogue instead of characterizing attempts to correct those misrepresentations as personal attacks.

Start being active in the politics of the DNP and start lobying for more clinical hours.

Clearly you have no clue of who I am, what I'm about or what I do to advance the position of nursing.

Don't depend on that external confirmation that you are worth something, by having to be called Dr.

All I can say here is 'Wow' you have totally missed the boat on the entire issue and refer you to my previous comment.

I personlly belive that we should follow the european model, and only proffesors should be called Dr. if it's that important to you, start working with your local NP asociation to start an education program to explain the levels of provider to the public, and include all levels of Dr's. start lobying for some form of national standard of practice. Be constructive.

Perhaps you are comfortable with another discipline dictating nursing's future and path; perhaps you are comfortable with some misrepresenting facts that tend to place nursing in a negative light-- but I am not. Perhaps you should consider lobbying for the medical establishment in limiting nursing's professional development and the disciplines evolution.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.

Tammy

No I don't know anything about you. Just like you know nothing about me, or about most of the other people here. Personal attack isn't always about what is said, but about how it is said.

You asked if I had read the bill, Did you? All the poster was guilty of was misreading wether the bill was going to be passed or not.

5/10/2007--Introduced.

Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act of 2007 - Prohibits any person who is a licensed health care service provider but who is not a medical doctor or a doctor of osteopathic medicine from making any statement or engaging in any act that deceives or misleads the public or a prospective or current patient into believing that such person is a doctor or has the same or equivalent education, skills, or training.

Requires any such person to identify in any advertisement the license under which such person is authorized to provide services.

Treats such statements or acts as unfair or deceptive acts or practices prescribed under the Federal Trade Commission Act. Requires the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to conduct an investigation of health care providers engaging in such acts to: (1) identify specific acts and practices constituting a violation of this Act; (2) determine the frequency of such acts and practices; (3) identify instances of harm or injury resulting from such acts and practices; (4) determine the extent to which such providers comply with state laws or regulations requiring disclosure of the type of license to patients or in advertisements; and (5) identify instances where any state public policy has permitted such acts and practices.

Sound to me like he didn't misrepresent anything. If I recal his post said likely pass, and guess what, he was wrong. But he didn't misrepresent anything.

Open and honest dialoge. Hmm thought out comments that happen to disagree with YOUR opinion, being labled as a misreprentation all the time. Hmm so much for open. Agenda. This conversation was opened way back when asking what people thought. I Just reread the whole thing. You didn't jump on any of the nurses who were against or thought the DNP was the wrong way for this to go. And what by the way do you think their agenda" as you put, is going to do here. Especially if you disagree so much, ignore it, It will go away. I know that the PA proffesion isn't scared of the DNP. I read all of my wifes journals when they come in. They are having some of the same discusion that nuses are about were to take the proffesion.

We all have our thoughts and beliefes about how this is all going to turn out. I think making it mandatory is the wrong move, but making it an advancement option is a good thing. That is My Opinion, I know it's different than yours, and it's different form the two PA's. I have no problem with the concept of DNP. I've just lived the past 30+ years hearing about the ADN vs BSN vs Diploma battle. Letters after our name aren't going to solve or help anything.

I tried to go back and find some of those origional articles from the 70's about why NP's were so important. They were all focused on the patient. My concern is that the patient, seems to be left behind in all the smoke from the DNP fire. It's supposed to be about the patient.

Its not just nursing that makes the mistake of believing that having a few more letters after their name is going to make people take us seriously. The EMS community is doing the same thing with paramedic certification.

To the two PA's on the board and all the others that post, with your opinions in a thougtfull, proffesional way, thank you. Dialoge makes people think,and each time my brain gets stretched, it makes me a better nurse, and a better mentor to the younger nurses.

Maybe it's time to close this thread for awhile. The DNP is here to stay, it needs to evolve. And the powers that be need to get their act together. ( i'll have to consider becomine a ditch digger if all 50 boards of nursing actually agree on something) Maybe it's time to clost this down and see what happens. Who know's in a couple of years time, we could all be wrong. No one really knows what the future of health care is going to be. Who knows the AMA might even get it's patient tech thing out of the closet and dusted off.

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Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

Guys,

We need some time out here for a bit. Back and forth - making it personal - it's getting us no where.

Closed for about 24 hours while everyone sits back, takes a deep breath, and can come back with clearer minds and focus on the topic........not each other.

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Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

Thread reopened.

Please, let's keep it respectful and professional.

Thanks.

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Specializes in ER; CCT.
Personal attack isn't always about what is said, but about how it is said.

I'm sorry you feel that correcting the record related to misinformation are personal attacks. I see it different. I see it as correcting misinformation, first, and second, correcting falsehoods in which I believe are forwarding an anti-nursing agenda.

So you and I are clear, I consider misrepresentation as "an untrue statement, whether unintentional or deliberate.... A form of nondisclosure where there is a duty to disclose, or the planned creation of a false appearance. http://www.answers.com/misrepresentation

You asked if I had read the bill, Did you?

A perfect example. One might take this question as a personal attack. If that is how it is taken--well then that is tough. What I think you are suggesting, in a confrontational manner, is if I really read the provision in entirety. My response is an unequivocal yes.

Sound to me like he didn't misrepresent anything. If I recal his post said likely pass, and guess what, he was wrong. But he didn't misrepresent anything.

All the poster was guilty of was misreading wether the bill was going to be passed or not.

Again, let me remind you of what the poster provided as fact:

Well, the "truth and transparency" act is before congress now, and if it passes, and it looks likely too, than it will be illegal for ANY NP or nurse (recognizing some of the older doctoral degrees in nursing) to call themselves "doctors" in the clinical setting.

I think it is clear that this is false on two important levels. First, as you rightly noted, this bill is nowhere near seeing the light of day of getting out of committee--EVER.

Well, the "truth and transparency" act is before congress now, and if it passes, and it looks likely too, ....

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that this dead bill will ever come back, besides the posters claims coming from neighbors, friends and what not.

Second, and this is critical, the poster misrepresented the fact that this bill, if passed into law, would have made it "ILLEGAL" for DNP's to use the title "doctor"

....it will be illegal for ANY NP or nurse (recognizing some of the older doctoral degrees in nursing) to call themselves "doctors" in the clinical setting.

EVEN IF THIS BILL PASSED, IT WOULD NOT BE ILLEGAL FOR DNP's TO USE THE TITLE "DOCTOR"

To the two PA's on the board and all the others that post with your opinions in a thougtfull, proffesional way, thank you. Dialoge makes people think,and each time my brain gets stretched, it makes me a better nurse, and a better mentor to the younger nurses. [/quote']

This is where I respectively disagree. I think fabricating truths, misrepresenting facts with an unequivocal anti nursing agenda is unprofessional and does nothing to move open and honest dialogue forward.

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Thread reopened.

Please, let's keep it respectful and professional.

Thanks.

Well there goes that...

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Doctoral degree to become an NP???

- Would be nice if the training from state to state was essentially the same.

- Would be nice if regulation from state to state was the same.

- Would be nice if the schools included more clinical training.

I don't know all the details but there have been diploma than ASN/BSN, MSN, PHD, and now DNP...

So whats next???

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Well there goes that...

There has to be some leeway for strong personalities...God knows we need them.:smokin:

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