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Disrespect & Profanity

Nurses   (20,552 Views | 324 Replies)

Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 82,526 Profile Views; 6,664 Posts

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

6 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:

Why do people who are not nurses feel the need to stick their nose in it,

Clark has exhibited a behavior and how HR reacts to this behavior as a precedent determines future acceptable employee behaviors.

Let's say for example, Clark continues to be employed at Wrongway. Maybe he gets a little slap on the wrist. Realistic, correct?

That means: I can walk into any professional meeting anywhere in the hospital, interrupt it, challenge anyone who attempts to direct me, then call them a name, and expect to receive only a slap on the wrist.

I'm thinking a meeting in which the CEO chairs.

Who's with me?

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TriciaJ has 39 years experience as a RN and specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.

13 Followers; 3,677 Posts; 37,958 Profile Views

31 minutes ago, Davey Do said:

I'm thinking a meeting in which the CEO chairs.

Who's with me?

Count me in.  I've put up with a lot of Clarks and they're like a cancer in the workplace.  Other employees start wondering what is the point of being conscientious when there's no consequence for not.  Then you see an entire unit start to unravel.  The people who don't want to allow their standards to slip start taking their standards elsewhere.  The Clark-to-human ratio goes up.

I probably don't need to tell you these things, Davey because I know you're an old pro.  But be careful not to show any emotion in the meeting and don't let them see how much Clark's behaviours personally disgust you.

Tell them you are increasingly concerned about patient safety and well-being and explain how Clark jeopardizes that.  Explain how the less self-directed of the staff are beginning to take their cue from Clark, with the subsequent erosion of the professional culture.  See if you can slide in something about decreased patient satisfaction with possible reflection of Press-Ganey results.

I personally think you can make this happen and I'm rooting for you.  I'm not saying I hope Clark loses his job; only you know if it's come to that.  Maybe a nice come-to-Jesus remedial work plan will shore things up.

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

1 hour ago, TriciaJ said:

Count me in. 

Thank you for your support, TriciaJ.

Every word of your post was pure gold but didn't quote all of it, not wanting to interfere with the flow of the thread.

Jason Hiney, who has been a staff nurse, house sup, quit, and returned as a staff nurse made the statement that in his seven years with Wrongway, he has not seen staff morale and numbers so low. Several others have said the same. And, oh, how I could go on and on about this.

There's a rumor going around that Wrongway has been bought by another company and there will be a name change.

I suggested "Titanic".

Thanks for the reinforcing advice about the emotions, TriciaJ. When I go into a situation that could prove to be emotional, I practise my lines and often rely on rote memory for responses.  Quoting the Code of Conduct Manual to Clark about harassment and a hostile workplace is example which yielded fruitful results.

Within your reinforcing words of gold is are paramount areas of focus: patients and safety. I often end my emails to my superiors focusing precisely on those two areas, for without either, we stand for nothing.

In a PM to JKL on this subject, I told her about my wake up time routine, my journal, and something akin to Emerson's "lowly listening". In my journal, I wrote, in large letters, what I heard: "DON'T LOSE SIGHT OF YOUR GOAL".

My original goal was to not have to deal with Clark's inappropriate behavior. The last time I filed a harassment grievance was in March 2017, against the director of the psych division, Amie, and my goal was to not be harassed by her. HR dropped the ball on that one, but I was not again harassed by Amie, and she has since lost her position. I attained my goal, even without HR's assistance.

I believe I've already had a come-to-Jesus meeting with Clark and he has ignored the word. But, perhaps now, he requires an intervention by the Bishop.

I am now rethinking my goal with Clark and it may be more universal. No employee should have to deal with the kind of behavior Clark exhibits: Profanity, interference with patient care, threatening, hostility, name calling, etc.

Clark may just have to become the poster child for the disease of deviance.

Once again, TriciaJ, I thank you for your support, guidance, and words of wisdom.

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

I, as others do, use these forums to assimilate situations and information. I remembered something else I had said after this portion of the incident:

On 2/23/2020 at 3:17 AM, Davey Do said:

 Clark called after me "Dave! Dave!" but I kept walking. He got up behind me and said, "I'd like to talk with you". I said, "I've got work to do". He said with his young alpha dog tail between his legs, "I wanted to apologize. I wanted to discuss what happened". I said, "I've got work to do and I don't want to hear your Ramma Lamma Ding Dong!" Clark said something along the lines of "The reason why I said what I said was because..." and I interrupted

"Clark, people who aren't wrong don't need to apologize!"

In reviewing that comeback, I asked myself, "That was an odd, passive aggressive statement to make. What was the reason you said that?"

I believe I said the statement was to, first, point out the fact, to Clark, that he had done something wrong. Openly identifying the fact that a wrong took place, and that he was the culprit, was important.

Secondly, Clark was going to rationalize his behavior. He was about to give an excuse for what he said in order to justify his statement.

Clark's behavior meets the criteria of a sociopath. Although I called him on his use of profanity, had previously requested that he not interrupt shift report, he continued to "show poor judgment and failure to learn by experience", amended quote from  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

Lastly, people tend to respond to passive aggressive statements with fervor. I was adding fuel to the fire in the "controlled explosion", handling the situation, with my odd passive aggressive statement.

It has been said that our intuitive brains are more intelligent than our conscious brains.

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

Clark said more after this, which I only partially heard.

On 2/23/2020 at 3:17 AM, Davey Do said:

 "Any further attempts to talk to me will be taken as harassment. Now: Leave. Me. Alone!"

As he stood in the doorway between the back hall and the nurses station, I remember Clark saying something along the lines of, " I just wanted to tell everyone 'good night' and hope that your shift goes well".

I believe Clark needed to have the last word, wanted to show that he was a caring individual, but made sure the statement was not specifically directed at me, as he addressed everyone in the nurses station. Otherwise, anything he said directly to me would have fulfilled my criteria for further harassment.

The young alpha dog was, for the final time, marking his area.

When one studies for a test, they review all the material, not just what they believe will be on the test.

Ever thus.

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

Maybe I'm obsessing, but I'm also enjoying examining this entire scenario as a study in behavior.

On 2/22/2020 at 9:46 AM, Daisy4RN said:

"If profanity offends you, you should go work somewhere else".  

(I used Daisy's quote because she so nicely bolded Clark's statement.)

I have a card up my sleeve which I will make privy and will play only if necessary and the opportunity presents itself.

Clark, in essence, was saying, "You need to leave this place of employment".

My place of employment, only in the week previous, honored me with an "Award for Extraordinary Nurses".

Therefore, Clark is opposing an administrative declaration.

Ew: "opposing an administrative declaration"! I'm going to add that to my list of Clark's offenses and be specific only if asked!

Thanks for allowing me to process this, you all!

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Tenebrae has 8 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.

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Davy, all the best with it. This Clark bloke sounds like he needs to go fly a kite

Please let us know how it turns out👍

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

Okay. Maybe I'm about to float my own boat, but I find this interesting. If you tire of hearing me pat myself on the back, or pontificate, you're free to change the station.

On 2/20/2020 at 2:24 AM, Davey Do said:

I hear profanity from an acquaintance as their way of saying, "I can say whatever I want with no regard to you".

Bill Moyers once said, "A leader is someone who discerned the inevitable and got out in front of it". 

On 2/24/2020 at 1:18 AM, Davey Do said:

I started this thread on Thursday, had the situation with Clark on Friday

Portends:

2 hours ago, Davey Do said:

Clark may just have to become the poster child for the disease of deviance.

 

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

10 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

Davy, all the best with it. This Clark bloke sounds like he needs to go fly a kite

Please let us know how it turns out👍

Thank you, Tenebrae. I don't know if I could not let you know how it turns out!

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Davey Do has 41 years experience and specializes in Psych, CD, HH, Admin, LTC, OR, ER, Med Surge.

16 Followers; 1 Article; 6,664 Posts; 82,526 Profile Views

On 2/24/2020 at 1:44 AM, Davey Do said:

HomeBound, I appreciate your post- it gave me an opposing viewpoint which assisted me in sharpening my steel.

HomeBound's opposing viewpoint allowed me to argue certain premises which are copied below. HomeBound's portions are in regular font and my responses are bolded.

I want to reinforce the fact that I am truly grateful for HomeBound's argument premises, for they may be some I will need to answer to when I go to HR.

Your behavior, especially after you clarified the entire scenario...was as unprofessional and incendiary as Clark's was.

I was performing my duties as a nurse: I was attempting to listen to shift report. Clark had no need or responsibility to be in shift report and was interfering with patient care by talking over the off going nurse, Trudith, and was also distracting the other nurse.

I provided Clark with "team coaching" in requesting that he leave. Since in an earlier shift report situation, I had requested that Clark not interrupt shift report, and he continued to do so, I believed he required direction.

 Clark not only interrupted shift report, he began an argument and challenging my request by stating, "What's your problem?!"

According to the Illinois Department of Employment Security, it is expected that employees will sometimes argue. An argument is an acceptable situation, as long as the employee does not raise their voice, make threatening gestures or statements, or use profanity.

Clark raised his voice and name called.

You are not his superior. You do not "get confrontational " in a public forum unless you want to be judged right along with Clark. You do these thing in private. You throw out "lines from CPI and the code of conduct book"....and in a very childish way  just keep thing going.

When designated as the charge nurse, I am responsible for the safety of the patients and staff and have the authority on the unit to give direction in any given situation. So, in effect, I am Clark's superior.

 I believed an immediate remedy of the situation was the best maneuver in this circumstance. The other nurse and I needed to hear a timely report which was not possible with Clark's presence.

 People will respond to that which is quoted from an employer's guidelines. In this manner, I was not being confrontational, I was merely quoting guidelines.

If I, as a manager, had watched this interaction, in public, I would have deemed it a disruption (whether you like it or not, you do not get to act however you see fit) by BOTH OF YOU and you both would meet me in HR.

The disruption was caused by Clark, I was merely giving direction.

As previously stated, I would gladly meet in HR.

And, had you been a Wrongway manager at 7pm on a Friday night, you would have left the building at least two hours earlier.

I get your frustration.  But you do not tell another team member to "leave" unless they are a threat. Even then, you call security.

Clark was a threat to patient safety. Calling security was unnecessary, as Clark eventually followed my request that he leave.

Clark is an arse. If the situation is "yearlong", why have you not brought him into the manager's office or to HR? you seem to have documented acts of harassment, profanity and disrespect....so.....HR time? Manager's office? Get it on record?

Immediately after Clark used profanities and misinterpreted a legal process, he was verbally informed of my beliefs. On January 18, 2020, I sent two emails to the psych division manager with a copy to my unit manager and to the director of HR.

 I have not received a reply from the division manager and from my unit manager and HR director, I received the same reply: "I'll look into this".

As far as "yearlong" past transgressions, I learned from a judge that only current incidents should be brought up when arguing a case. The current case incidents include the inappropriate and erroneous statements from the CPI training and the shift report incident.

It's not your fight if this guy is really as disruptive as you say. It's up to management because you are not the authority there.

Premise previously argued. See my paragraph 7.

The first time he offended you should have been the warning shot. the second time is the final warning. the third should have landed both of you in management's proximity to deal effectively with the situation. to allow something as horrible as you are saying is happening to you....to continue....for a year? as a manager I would question the veracity. not that you are lying. but if it takes a year of open disruption in a unit for anyone to say something....then I am questioning if its more  case of simply not liking this guy's style.

 Staff members will often consciously or unconsciously offend one another and not every transgression need be addressed. With Clark, I heard the warning shot and saw the red flag with the first offense, but did not act on every transgression. Unless patient safety is directly compromised, I choose my battles, give 'em enough rope, and have the hammer available when they are ready to drive the nails into their coffin.

I have a reputation for being a nurse and person of integrity, always endeavoring to put principles before personalities.

I don't like several of my colleagues, but that has nothing to so with their skill as a nurse, their ability to meet the conditions of their employment.

Ditto. Recently someone told me, "Mickey Weird thinks you don't like her". I replied, "My liking or disliking her is not a factor. She gives poor patient care, has made bad situations worse, and has caused me more work because of her presence. Unless absolutely necessary, I will not work with her".

A side note: Trudith freely uses the F word. However, Trudith worked at a steel mill before becoming a nurse and provides quality care for her patients. She is aware of how I feel about profanity, but because she is a good psych nurse, I will give her some latitude and allow a few F bombs now and again.

Trudith and I even had a little discussion that night about her use of the F word after the Clark/shift report incident.

in fact, I see a homogeneous unit...where everybody is somehow connected...school, family, friends...as a problem. dealing with difficult personalities is part of being an adult. you don't get to exclude people because you personally cannot deal with them or don't like them. maybe they feel exactly the same way about you.

I get to to exclude, or better yet, banish those who continue to interfere with patient care and refuse to be directed.

I've found that most people who don't like me tend to give me the cold shoulder, with which I'm okay.

 Clark tends to be in places where I am. This last Sunday, he found things to do on geriatric psych. He did some paperwork, filing, but did not interfere with patient care. We said nothing to one another the several minutes he was there.

this is the basis for the management of difficult personalities classes we take. if he is harassing you....you have enough experience and are of an age that you know to document document document...and then rid the unit of a harasser. if the episodes are mainly that he talks when you want him to be quiet....that is not harassment. what is harassment,  however, is telling someone to leave an area when no authority exists to do so.

The points in my argument has proven that Clark is a harasser.

if he has no business in report huddle  you can report him to the charge or management with the additional information that he is disrupting flow as well as in a conference he has no business being in

Done.

I am not not trying to make you out to be the bad guy here. you are, however, experienced enough to know better than to act as disruptive with the verbal crap that went on in that incident.

I can be the bad cop or a jerk faced creep if I need to be.

I handled the situation as I saw fit and will deal with the ramifications thereof.

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Hoosier_RN has 20 years experience as a MSN and specializes in LTC, home health, hospice, ICU, ER, dialysis.

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@Davey DoI think you've actually put a name/face/value to some of the issues in facilities currently. Yes, understaffing, but when you add in some that serve no purpose other than to hang out and jabber jaw/take up space, it decreases morale, making the workplace even worse...

Edited by Hoosier_RN

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Tweety has 28 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

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9 hours ago, Davey Do said:

Clark has exhibited a behavior and how HR reacts to this behavior as a precedent determines future acceptable employee behaviors.

Let's say for example, Clark continues to be employed at Wrongway. Maybe he gets a little slap on the wrist. Realistic, correct?

That means: I can walk into any professional meeting anywhere in the hospital, interrupt it, challenge anyone who attempts to direct me, then call them a name, and expect to receive only a slap on the wrist.

I'm thinking a meeting in which the CEO chairs.

Who's with me?

I am 100% with you in your reporting of him.  But not with you in acting like him because two wrongs don't make a right (I know you're not really serious anyway).

You may not be privy to what occurs and it might look like a slap on the wrist or "nothing was done" (something I hear often when people complain about someone and my response usually is "how do you know, were you a fly on the wall?").  He might be written up and "counseled" and have an action plan that's between him and HR. It would then be up to you to monitor him and report him again and each and every time should he continue and ultimately something might happen.  People often give up when they think "nothing was done" or got just a slap on the wrist.

Or perhaps this would be a wake up call to him, he looks at himself and the behavior stops.  (Not likely)

Good luck.

Edited by Tweety

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