Debts are the Whips and Shackles That Will Enslave You

[KeepItRealRN]

1. The truth out there is that for the most part with rare exceptions, Hospitals don't care where you went to school. Taking out tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt to get a "designer" degree will not make you more competetive. It will however limit your opportunities because you have to generate a siginificant cash flow in order to pay off your debt.

2. When you do finally land your first job it most likely won't be the one you want. We all have to start somewhere to get our "foot in the door". When you have big debt you don't have the luxury of being able to be "between jobs". You will need to keep your crappy job no matter how much it sucks unless you have another one lined up and ready to go. Being without a paycheck even for a couple of weeks is not an option.

3. Big debt puts you in a position where you must "put up" with conditions you might not otherwise be willing to put up with because you can not afford to lose your job.

4. Money has been described as the "root of all evil", but the fact is that in our society (money=freedom). If you don't have it, or worse yet if you owe it to someone, then you are being controled.

Having said all of this, your outlook on life in general will be much improved when you go to your job because you "choose to" rather than "have to". I'm not saying that I am independently wealthy by any means. I have to work to live like everyone else but I do it on my terms.

Think about this, a lot of us before school worked jobs that didn't pay nearly as much as nursing and we got by OK. We did however had to work full time and then some to make ends meet. If you stay out of debt, you can make the same amount of money working a minimal amount of hours. This affords you to have a large quantity of something that is simply priceless and that is "time".

There are 3 types of poverty in this life and they are

1. Poverty of cash

2. Poverty of time

3. Poverty of the soul.

Solving "poverty of cash" by living in "poverty of time" is not a good trade off. We are all given a limited amount of time here on earth. When we work we are basically selling our time. I don't know about you but my time is priceless to me and I will only sell it to the highest bidder on my terms. However this is only possible if you plan it that way and stay out of debt.

[SunSurfRN]

Well, as I mentioned SunsurfRN, various factors come into play. If you're single, and carrying the load, a loan payment of say 800 to 1000 a month on top of all of the other expenses can be very staggering. Every 2 weeks, my deductions are between 1100 to 1200 dollars. Yes, it is that high. On top of tax, we pay union dues, dental, medical. Rent/ mortgage is 1000 or more where I live.

So, you'd be very poor shelling out a huge student loan payment on top. Now, I'm not complaining. I don't owe 100 k, and I make about 80 k a year. My comment was an observation, because many people are facing huge debt. Also, not everyone wants to work till age 65, and these days, few people have steady full time nursing jobs, especially new grads. With interest, that 100 grand in Canada would amount to about 140,000. Not fun to pay for 20 years or more.

Ok, fair points. I was not being condescending....just astounded that some nurses consider a 4 day workweek even at 50 hours to be alot. In my former industry (finance) 50-60 hours was so common. Additionally, I am less than a year out of school and find it to be easy to find plenty of hours if you get 1 full time and then 1-2 PRN jobs.

As far as student loan debt...realize the other side of the coin is there is no way to borrow through school. Everyone would quadruple impact the ADN programs (the irony in this "BSN preferred" age) and LPN programs because they were so cheap. People like me who wanted a BSN even at 65k in debt would be shut out or on 5 yr waitslists. The heck with that I'm happy to be licensed and working, and I will never default on my loans. If they shut off the student loan faucet, it would ruin many peoples hopes and dreams! So what if you have to pay it back.....we are borrowing in 2010 dollars...in 10-30 yrs they will be worth less at this rate lol.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

Yes Sunsurf RN, I do understand your points. I guess it depends on what you value, which is different for everyone. For close to 20 years, I worked 50 to 70 hour weeks. One of the reasons I went back to school for nursing is because I knew I could make a good living and work less. I have no desire to work that many hours ever again. I like to take time to smell the roses :) I like to travel or even spend time reading a book. I don't want 48 hour work weeks. For what end?

Within the next 15 years, I plan to reduce my hours to about a .75. At the moment, I'm working a .85 and if it weren't for my loans I'd work less. As Craig said, the goal should be work to live, not live to work. To each his own.

[alem-tsahai]

Ok, fair points. I was not being condescending....just astounded that some nurses consider a 4 day workweek even at 50 hours to be alot. In my former industry (finance) 50-60 hours was so common. Additionally, I am less than a year out of school and find it to be easy to find plenty of hours if you get 1 full time and then 1-2 PRN jobs.

As far as student loan debt...realize the other side of the coin is there is no way to borrow through school. Everyone would quadruple impact the ADN programs (the irony in this "BSN preferred" age) and LPN programs because they were so cheap. People like me who wanted a BSN even at 65k in debt would be shut out or on 5 yr waitslists. The heck with that I'm happy to be licensed and working, and I will never default on my loans. If they shut off the student loan faucet, it would ruin many peoples hopes and dreams! So what if you have to pay it back.....we are borrowing in 2010 dollars...in 10-30 yrs they will be worth less at this rate lol.

Never say never. Once upon a time I thought the SAME THING, "I'll never default on my loans". Then life happened and through no fault on my part my loans defaulted. It was a true complete total mess that took me YEARS to undo. Life happens, sometimes in ways you don't want it to so please don't assume that you are going to be humming along in the same direction now in 5 years. Those rose-colored glasses need to come off SunSurfRN....

[CrunchRN, ADN, RN]

It seems like the whole housing debacle to me.

You have all these greedy schools romancing people to do these programs and take out all these loans for something that they may never be able to afford.

And then you have all these people who don't research the programs and pay potential and take the "free" ride seemingly oblivious to the fact that they will have to pay it all back and there income may never be high enough to do that and afford a decent life style.

[Otessa, BSN, RN]

I struggle with the pull between being a mom and wife and my job.

Would love to stay home or work part time but the options are few with my position-not working direct patient care-working my dream job but it is 5 days/week-40 hours.

Love the not working holidays, weekends, or nights but the summertime with my kids at a day camp all summer is tough! Would love to spend more time with them!

Vacations and a day off here and there have been Godsends.

Paying bills and saving for retirement and college for kids and generally not having to worry about money are what keep me going in to work with a positive attitude.

[klone, MSN, RN]

As far as getting out of debt, I'm a big fan of Michelle Singletary and (less so) Suze Orman. Dave Ramsey is too religious for my tastes. If I want to know what Jesus said about something, I'll read the Bible, not a book about financial planning.

His secular book, Total Money Makeover, really says nothing about the bible other than the quote given in the OP. My husband, who is an atheist, had no problems reading it and taking great info from it, and was not turned off at all. His other book "Financial Peace" has definite religious overtones, and is regularly taught at churches.

The main difference between Ramsey and Orman is that Suze is a slave to the almighty FICO. Whereas, Dave is of the opinion that if you have no consumer debt, and pay CASH for everything, it doesn't matter what your FICO is.

[Jules A, MSN]

You got that right. And they are creating a college bubble in much the same way they created a housing bubble. The truth is when it all comes out people are going to start defaulting on their student loans left and right. But wait, you can't have your student loans wiped out by a bankrupcy anymore. So you will owe that money until the day you die. Every time you get a job and a pay check, Uncle Sam will be there to take a chunk of it. Don't have enough left to live on? Not our problem.

And frankly I have little sympathy for this situation either. I'm sorry but no one paid, forgave or lowered my mortgage interest rate on the modest house I own. I bought something most people woudn't even consider living in because it was what I knew I could afford, not what the bank told me I could afford. Likewise I worked all during school starting with my LPN and will finish up grad school with less than $10,000 in debt. I understand that this comes off as harsh but these attitudes are part of the reasons our country is in the bad shape it is today. I'm tired of feeling like I'm getting hosed for living below my means.

[Jules A, MSN]

Ok, fair points. I was not being condescending....just astounded that some nurses consider a 4 day workweek even at 50 hours to be alot. In my former industry (finance) 50-60 hours was so common. Additionally, I am less than a year out of school and find it to be easy to find plenty of hours if you get 1 full time and then 1-2 PRN jobs.

As far as student loan debt...realize the other side of the coin is there is no way to borrow through school. Everyone would quadruple impact the ADN programs (the irony in this "BSN preferred" age) and LPN programs because they were so cheap. People like me who wanted a BSN even at 65k in debt would be shut out or on 5 yr waitslists. The heck with that I'm happy to be licensed and working, and I will never default on my loans. If they shut off the student loan faucet, it would ruin many peoples hopes and dreams! So what if you have to pay it back.....we are borrowing in 2010 dollars...in 10-30 yrs they will be worth less at this rate lol.

Although I disagee with overextending ourselves for anything I would happily support your position if you are able in fact to continue working as much as you need to pay off your debt. As long as you know what you are doing and don't feel the need to whine about it I have no problem with your strategy. I also work a lot of overtime but it is for extras because I'm pretty sure my body won't support doing it forever. Best of luck to you!

[OgopogoLPN, LPN, RN]

Ah, just had a conversation with my husband this morning about how much I'm working. (Full time-8 hour shifts=10 shifts every 14 days.) Not enough time off!!! I may be offered a 0.5, 12 hour line which would offer SO MANY DAYS OFF in between blocks and then still allow me to pick up extra shifts to be able to work approx a 0.8-0.9 FTE which is so much nicer than FT.

Just for an example, my last paycheque was 67.5 hours instead of the usual 75 hours and it was only $50 less take home than a 75 hour paycheque!!

I have NO TIME OFF in the summer as I am low nurse on the totem pole and wasn't granted any of my summer choices for holidays. Ugh.

And as for student loans, my original loan payment was $50/month and they amortized it for 14.5 years . I upped the payments to $120/month and it will be pay off in less than 3 :)

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

Exactly. I work 12 hrs at a .85 FTE, which is 34 shifts in a 3 month rotation. If they request I pick up an unscheduled shift, I'm paid overtime. Really, if you work any more than say a .85, you're working for the government. It is NOT worth it for your paycheck, or your health to work all kinds of extra shifts. Therefore, taking on high loan payments for any reason...not a wise idea.

Also, what if you lose your job? How are the payments made then? This is precisely why we are in an economic crisis. Millions of people are living well above their means.

[pedicurn, LPN, RN]

Having said all of this, your outlook on life in general will be much improved when you go to your job because you "choose to" rather than "have to". I'm not saying that I am independently wealthy by any means. I have to work to live like everyone else but I do it on my terms.

There are 3 types of poverty in this life and they are

1. Poverty of cash

2. Poverty of time

3. Poverty of the soul.

.

Agree regarding the importance of not taking on too much debt.

However, our world is changing and nurses (as well as many other middle income earners) will have less life choice and opportunity compared to the last one or two generations.

Middle class standards of living are falling .... the 'rich-not rich' gap is widening.

We will start to experience some 'poverty of time and cash' .... more than what we would like. Having to work longer weeks to be able to afford a decent standard of living will become the norm.

I don't actually think many nurses earn enough to be middle class. Especially noticeable in regions with expensive housing .... we are fast becoming part of the working class.

[Medic/Nurse, BSN, RN]

I think it is fair to say that all agree that debt is not without sacrifice.

I think the point the OP made is this - be cautious and deliberate when chasing a degree.

In many areas of this country nursing schools are "harder" (by the sheer numbers wanting in) that many other schools to get into. Enter "private" programs that have little to no waiting (and many reason sooner in - sooner out and into the paying world!!) - but cost a small fortune. Also, I'm not knocking an "ivy league" or Top 20 university education and if that is your goal and can "afford" in - good on you. I have never been a hater and delight in others success.

The thing is this - when choosing any course of study perspective is essential. This may not seem like REAL money and when you are in the process of getting that education --- it can seem VITAL (and sometimes is!) that you get started and keep on keeping on. There is always that magical - it will work out - or - I'm going on to grad school/advanced degree, so this program will help me get in and on to brighter prospects - or - I will be making bank, always have a job, have lots of opportunity for OT (and can pay $ back in a flash) and there will always be folks looking for and paying nurses (bonuses to start are like 20K - that will help too!). And we all know that the "market" has had some "corrections" lately and they have been a bit "painful" to many.

Even if you recognize that you are 50K/ and 2 years in (and think "oh my God, I'm going to have 6 figure debt on a 50K job, IF I can find a job...) and consider a change to a less expensive school after that first couple of years in it is near impossible to change your course (or school) - so once you start - you are likely there for the duration. And if debt escalates - there is always the logic - if I stop now, I owe a bunch and am left with no degree, license or good way to pay it back. That is true.

I think the take away lesson is this.

Money spent on school is still real money.

Money taken in loan form must be paid back.

School debt like all debt - comes out of the budget and leaves less for other "wants" or even "needs".

A debt of 100K with an income that is likely steady over a decade of 60-80K is going to limit your "options" - hate your job? feel unsafe in your current environment? want to cut back on hours - a baby, sick parents, personal illness? Not easy to do with major school debt. After all you will still need a house, electric, insurance, medical and dental care, transportation, food - maybe even clothes or a vacation.

This is just a tale of caution. It is never too late to make a good decision.

For the vast MAJORITY of clinical staff nurses a community college ASN degree opens as many doors as a BSN from a private school (and sometimes there are private schools - though pricey have "quality issues") or even an ivy league degree. Just because your degree is from an elite program or school - the reality is that for most entry level staff positions it won't make that much difference. I do readily recognize that "better programs" BSN and high degrees do open doors in research, management, education and look good when advancing education post grad.

But the reality is that staff clinical nurses average less that 60K year to start and pay DOES NOT rise rapidly (unlike our MD friends - a 200 K debt is not as scary when you are making 600K fives years in practice).

Getting started with a "garden variety" low cost ASN and starting to work (without debt) makes your options increase. Want to continue your education? Your employer will likely help pay for it! Free MONEY rocks!

The point is - be cautious with debt - school debt has enslaved many of my peers and I can tell you from this side of freedom (no school debt and no other real debt) - I wish this for everyone. I'm no better, just older and have learned from mistakes.

Best Lesson - about money or even patient care issues ---

You do not have to make the mistake to learn from it.

I hope you do well. I wish all freedom and the priceless success that comes with it!

Good Luck!

:angel: