According to the Associated Press as cited in the Post article, "Cuba has made recent advancements in biotechnology and exports its treatments to 40 countries around the world, raking in an estimated $100 million a year. ... In 2004, the U.S. government granted an exception to its economic embargo against Cuba and allowed a California drug company to test three cancer vaccines developed in Havana."
The article talked about documented workers contributions to tax revenue but undocumented workers don't pay income taxes. And, while undocumented workers may not being going to a primary physician, they are using emergency services, prenatal services and labor &delivery services, all w/o contributing to the system. While I don't begrudge them these services, undocumented (illegal) workers do drain our medical system w/o contributing to it. However this is one example of people w/ an inability to pay being provided w/ services. And trust me if an illegal worker shows up at our ER w/ say an asthma exacerbation, they will be treated and given an inhaler if they need one, despite the fact we're not in Cuba.
Thanks for helping the technologically challenged. By quotetag do you mean the quote button at the bottom of posts? B/c I tried this and couldn't figure out how to get more than one on to the reply screen.
the article talked about documented workers contributions to tax revenue but undocumented workers don't pay income taxes. and, while undocumented workers may not being going to a primary physician, they are using emergency services, prenatal services and labor &delivery services, all w/o contributing to the system. while i don't begrudge them these services, undocumented (illegal) workers do drain our medical system w/o contributing to it. however this is one example of people w/ an inability to pay being provided w/ services. and trust me if an illegal worker shows up at our er w/ say an asthma exacerbation, they will be treated and given an inhaler if they need one, despite the fact we're not in cuba.
they actually are paying taxes through payroll, sales, and indirect property taxes through rent.
i think it was the rand corporation that did a study of use of health care services by undocumented workers that found a lower overall use of health care services by immigrants in general.
barbara ehrenreich just wrote an article for the nation discussing the impact of immigrants on the health care economy.
in case you don't know what immigrants do in this country, the latinos have a word for it--trabajo. they've been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking.
...
the only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. first, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in america will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to medicare and social security, and here i quote the website of the san diego aclu:
undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into social security, and $1.5 billion more into medicare.... a study by the national academy of sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
They actually are paying taxes through payroll, sales, and indirect property taxes through rent.
I think it was the Rand corporation that did a study of use of health care services by undocumented workers that found a lower overall use of health care services by immigrants in general.
Barbara Ehrenreich just wrote an article for the Nation discussing the impact of immigrants on the health care economy.
What payroll taxes? Sales taxes, yes but since most of the illegals i've known (I taught ESL) send a significant portion of their earnings home that isn't a huge income for the nation. The property tax gets paid whether any one lives in the rental property or not. Having the worker there does not raise any tax revenue.
I am all for capitalism, as I'm a true blue American.
Leave the health providers as they are, just get access to everyone. No need to scrap the entire medical system, just come up with a system where everyone is insured. :)
There's little doubt at this point that the profit motive with U.S. healthcare doesn't work. We spend more than anybody else yet our system is ranked 37th. The only way to make a lot of money with our system is to deny care to a substantial portion of the population.
As the old saying goes ... behind every great fortune there's a crime ... and in our case, it's millions of crimes. With our system you can't get rich by insuring everybody, only by denying care.
In the movie Moore does interview a British doctor who says he's paid more if his patients are healthier with lower blood pressures, etc. Seems like that might work for us but, from a practical standpoint, it would never happen unless the government is the single payer with that mandate.
Because ... when you think about it ... the HMO's already have ample motive to keep the insured healthy. But, of course, that's not enough for the HMO's ... they want to make even more money and that means denying care even when the healthy insured get sick.
The government would have to force them to do it and, at that point, it would be government controlled healthcare anyway.
As Moore points out ... there are certain services that shouldn't be for profit and should only be controlled by the government ... like police and fire. Could you ever imagine the HMO's controlling police and fire services?
Sorry ... we know you're house is on fire but, we're denying coverage because of an exemption in your policy. We're going to let your house burn down.
Or ... sorry that someone has broken into your house and is murdering you but ... since you don't have insurance, we're not coming to help. We're going to let you die instead.
It's absurd, isn't it? Yet this is what we do with the healthcare. Just because we are a capitalist society doesn't mean everything should be for profit ... and with police and fire, it's not. Healthcare shouldn't be either.
As Moore points out ... there are certain services that shouldn't be for profit and should only be controlled by the government ... like police and fire. Could you ever imagine the HMO's controlling police and fire services?
:typing
I'm kind of mixed on this.
I work for a not-for-profit privately owned facility and we must make some sort of profit to stay open. I'm still for keeping it this way. Otherwise we'd be operating too much on deficits.
I'm all for a government form of payment such as expanding the current medicaide/medicare service to include all persons. But not sure I support them taking over health care entire and making it all a government institution. No need to shake things up that dramatically. Let's just start with getting everyone covered.
Medicaide/medicare also doesn't blindly pay every bill that comes their way. We had a patient admitted for pneumonia on p.o. levaquin and no oxygen. Sad for her that her medicare isn't going to pay that bill. Same for the GIB on a regular diet with a hemeglobin of 13.0.....These people don't need to be in the hospital. Hospitals thus would strive to decrease the length of stay and get discharge orders for these patients. A government hospital like the VA wouldn't care, and they would stay for days and days and day costing us more money in the end.
I don't think in a UHC system they should pay for non-emergency ER visits.
I still say profit and captialism might work in a UHC system. It might keep costs from spiraling out of control if that UHC maintains some control over what they will and will not pay for.
Specializes in UR/PA, Hematology/Oncology, Med Surg, Psych.
I'm kind of mixed on this.
I work for a not-for-profit privately owned facility and we must make some sort of profit to stay open. I'm still for keeping it this way. Otherwise we'd be operating too much on deficits.
I'm all for a government form of payment such as expanding the current medicaide/medicare service to include all persons. But not sure I support them taking over health care entire and making it all a government institution. No need to shake things up that dramatically. Let's just start with getting everyone covered.
Medicaide/medicare also doesn't blindly pay every bill that comes their way. We had a patient admitted for pneumonia on p.o. levaquin and no oxygen. Sad for her that her medicare isn't going to pay that bill. Same for the GIB on a regular diet with a hemeglobin of 13.0.....These people don't need to be in the hospital. Hospitals thus would strive to decrease the length of stay and get discharge orders for these patients. A government hospital like the VA wouldn't care, and they would stay for days and days and day costing us more money in the end.
I don't think in a UHC system they should pay for non-emergency ER visits.
I still say profit and captialism might work in a UHC system. It might keep costs from spiraling out of control if that UHC maintains some control over what they will and will not pay for.
Wait, you want to continue the insurance system as is, but just expand Medicare/Medicaid to cover the uninsured? As if Medicare and Medicaid aren't bloated enough, and with their re-imbursements rates, many providers would not be willing to see those patients. I already see a lack of Medicare providers in my area of the country, due totally on the low re-imbursement. So basically my taxes would go up, but we still wouldn't have equality in coverage and access. From personal experience, I know a few employer offered health plans that give many less benefits than Medicaid. Years ago I had a job where I worked my tail off but the insurance stank, I actually had to quit to get Medicaid to cover my children's healthcare costs at the time (Although I must add this was a very economically depressed area.) I had much better insurance by NOT working. Didn't like doing it, but at the time I had no choice.
I still say profit and captialism might work in a UHC system. It might keep costs from spiraling out of control if that UHC maintains some control over what they will and will not pay for.
That's why I thought Moore's interview with the British doctor was so fascinating. He's paid by the government, but he's paid even more if he keeps his patients healthy.
That, IMO, would be the way do it. A government system that pays MD's, nurses and all of the other direct healthcare staff more money for keeping patients healthy. That's a profit motive that would actually work and, would also keep costs down.
Because you've got to take Wall Street out of the equation. Wall Street isn't actually interested in keeping healthcare costs down ... the HMO phenomenon has proven this. HMO's promised they would cut costs but they didn't ... costs are still skyrocketing every year.
The fact is: Wall Street is interested in keeping revenues up and patient care costs down because 10 profit isn't enough for them. In fact, that's considered a failure ... you've got to have 20 percent profits or better or your stock tanks.
And on Wall Street those profits better go up year after year ... because keeping patients healthy isn't enough. You've got to deny care to meet those expectations and to be able to buy those multi-million dollar homes.
This is how we end up paying more for less quality healthcare.
Wait you want to continue the insurance system as is, but just expand Medicare/Medicaid to cover the uninsured? As if Medicare and Medicaid aren't bloated enough, and with their re-imbursements rates, many providers would not be willing to see those patients. I already see a lack of Medicare providers in my area of the country, due totally on the low re-imbursement. So basically my taxes would go up, but we still wouldn't have equality in coverage and access. From personal experience, I know a few employer offered health plans that give many less benefits than Medicaid. Years ago I had a job where I worked my tail off but the insurance stank, I actually had to quit to get Medicaid to cover my children's healthcare costs at the time (Although I must add this was a very economically depressed area.) I had much better insurance by NOT working. Didn't like doing it, but at the time I had no choice.[/quote']
No I do not want to continue the insurance system as it is and cover just the uninsured with medicaide/medicare. I want a single payer........the government........to insure everyone. One idea is to use the current system already in place and expand it to include all Americans.
I do not want the government however to blindly pay every bill they get, such as the person with a cold that goes to the ER. I think their reimbursement rates should be raised, but not blindly so that health care costs rise just because the government is willing to pay it.
I'm not sure I want to become a government employee and have the goverment take over all hospitals, doctors offices, etc. That would be too bloated and perhaps take capitalism out of our #1 industry.
Obviously there are a myriad of things to consider in UHC and one answer leads to more questions.
Wait you want to continue the insurance system as is, but just expand Medicare/Medicaid to cover the uninsured? As if Medicare and Medicaid aren't bloated enough, and with their re-imbursements rates, many providers would not be willing to see those patients. I already see a lack of Medicare providers in my area of the country, due totally on the low re-imbursement. So basically my taxes would go up, but we still wouldn't have equality in coverage and access. From personal experience, I know a few employer offered health plans that give many less benefits than Medicaid. Years ago I had a job where I worked my tail off but the insurance stank, I actually had to quit to get Medicaid to cover my children's healthcare costs at the time (Although I must add this was a very economically depressed area.) I had much better insurance by NOT working. Didn't like doing it, but at the time I had no choice.[/quote']
Okay,so Medicaid/Medicare is better than bad insurance but not by much and a lot of providers don't want to take these pts b/c they don't reimburse well and this is run by the same gov't you want to take over all health care coverage?
Specializes in Surgery/ Psych/ Peds ICU/ Coranary Care.
Don.t be Fooled! Only true unaided Market Forces will drive costs down. Ever hear the commercial "When Banks Compete You Win" well when healthcare has got to compete for your bucks and you can choose who takes care of you freely, plus you have your money in your pocket. then you will win bigtime. only then will the naked businessmen and doctors who are not coddled by government or protected from failure by insurance cos', ppos' or hmos' actually provide you with good service or lose you as a customer. It Is Your Hard Earned Money. You Should Not Be Taxed to take care of every Unhealthy Tom, Dick And Harry.
oh by the way we could give Income tax breaks to hospitals and doctors who take care of the indigent pro bono. less taxes would also mean less indigent. Health Is Not A Right it has got to be earned by doing the right thing. Our System now promotes Illness. it is not " healthcare" it is sickcare. healthcare is a misnomer just like (LIfe Insurance) lol
:lol2:
fronkey bean
491 Posts
The article talked about documented workers contributions to tax revenue but undocumented workers don't pay income taxes. And, while undocumented workers may not being going to a primary physician, they are using emergency services, prenatal services and labor &delivery services, all w/o contributing to the system. While I don't begrudge them these services, undocumented (illegal) workers do drain our medical system w/o contributing to it. However this is one example of people w/ an inability to pay being provided w/ services. And trust me if an illegal worker shows up at our ER w/ say an asthma exacerbation, they will be treated and given an inhaler if they need one, despite the fact we're not in Cuba.