Concerned mother..question about clinicals

Nursing Students CNA/MA

Published

My 16 year old high school daughter is thinking about going into nursing so she signed up for the CNA course offered at the local technical college which she also gets class credit for. At the time we signed her up, I really didn't know what a CNA did, but the more I research, the more I am worried about her taking this course.

It's the clinicals that I am worried about. She will be working in a nursing home, helping the regular nurses there care for the elderly, right? The part I am worried about with that is the "assist in dressing and bathing". In clinicals, can the nurses have her bathe a naked man including washing his genital area? Or have her change a Depends undergarment and have to clean the genial area of an old man? :eek:

For her to have to do that at 18, I wouldn't have as much problem with it. At 18 your considered an adult. But I don't want her doing that sort of thing at 16.

Please let me know.

Thanks!

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

But this thread is about a 16-year-old girl and how it's just accepted

that she will have complete access to any male that needs intimate

care.

*** What is the concern? Are some afraid that this young girl will become aroused at the sight of male patients genitals and go out and seek sex?

What I'm stating that what's being so casually discussed on this thread

would never be the case with a 16-year-old

male cna trainee. He would never be allowed to have access to any

female patient needing intimate.

*** In what world is that the case? I am a male and have been a nurse for 14 years (hospital, not LTC) and have never once heard or experienced a case where a male CNA was not allowed to do intimate care on a female patient. Of course there have individual female patients that have requested a female CNA or RN but those are exceptions.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
The part I am worried about with that is the "assist in dressing and bathing". In clinicals, can the nurses have her bathe a naked man including washing his genital area? Or have her change a Depends undergarment and have to clean the genial area of an old man? :eek:

*** Are you worried that the sight of and the cleaning of her elderly male patients genitals will cause her to become aroused and thus more likely to engage in sex?

It just interests me that the whole discussion is totally from the cna's point of view. It starts with the mother's concern. What's she concerned about? That the girl's young sensitivities will be harmed? The focus is on the cna, how she will feel. There is no equal concern with the male patient's sensitivities. Indeed, the general opinion seems to be that it really won't matter to any man this young girl deals with. A poster ask if I'm concerned with the possible arousal of the cna. Of course not. That's not the issue. The issue is the comfort of the patient, and you'll really never know that for sure with intimate care unless you ask, which is not often procedure.

What I'm trying to do is at least level the focus, so we're looking at both the feelings and sensibilities of the female cna and the male patient, equally. For some patients, it won't matter. For some patients, it will matter. But I must remind everyone that the original post was about a 16 year old. I question the appropriateness of a 16 year old of either gender having complete access to intimate care for the opposite gender under normal circumstances. And I still pose the question -- would it be standard procedure to send a 16 year old male cna to do intimate care on a female patient? No one has addressed that question. Yet the consensus here seems to be that it is completely appropriate for a 16 year old female to be doing intimate care on male patients. I'm not rejecting opposite gender intimate care if it's okay with the patient. That's not the issue. And I'm not questioning whether adult, mature male cna's treat female patients. Whatever patients are comfortable with. I'm questioning the age of this cna in terms of the gender double standards I've discussed in past posts.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

There is no equal concern with the male patient's sensitivities. Indeed, the general opinion seems to be that it really won't matter to any man this young girl deals with. A poster ask if I'm concerned with the possible arousal of the cna. Of course not. That's not the issue. The issue is the comfort of the patient,

*** That may be your issue but that wasn't the concern of the OP. She stated she was concerned about her 16 year old daughter having contact with elderly men's genitals but also stated she would be less concerned if her daughter was 18. I very, very much doubt that any man is going to be more or less bothered by cares provided by a 16 vs 18 year old girl.

I question the appropriateness of a 16 year old of either gender having complete access to intimate care for the opposite gender under normal circumstances.

*** My question, and I have asked it several times, is what is the concern? What is it you are worried about? Where I work (hospital, not LTC) we have CNAs who are 16 or 17. The age of the CNA is never taken into account when it comes to what patients they provider cares for.

And I still pose the question -- would it be standard procedure to send a 16 year old male cna to do intimate care on a female patient? No one has addressed that question.

*** Well I did and I will repeat myself. Why not? In our unit the CNA is the CNA and does whatever CNA tasks need to be done. The CNAs age and sex are not taken into account. We don't currently have any 16 year old male CNAs but we have in the past.

There have been times when a particular patient has requested a CNA or RN of the same sex but this is unusual and of course we do everything possible to accommodate their request.

To PMFB-RN -- Thanks for your complete answer. You do make your position clear.

I do seriously question one of your statements. It is this: "I very, very much doubt that any man is going to be more or less bothered by cares provided by a 16 vs 18 year old girl." I can't believe you've stereotyped men this way -- No man at all will be bothered by this? Don't you think realistically it might depend upon the kind of care we're talking about? What if I told you that some men just don't prefer any intimate care from female caregivers regardless of her age. Would you believe that? How about women? Are any women at all bothered by intimate care by a 16 to 18 year old male cna or nurse? Or from a male nurse of any age -- especially intimate care? Obviously, some are. Don't tell me otherwise. Why would you think that no men at all would be bothered -- or, do you believe that men as a gender just don't have any privacy or modesty concerns.

But you do state that you do everything possible to accommodate gender requests, and I believe you. That's a good thing and important. I just disagree with you that gender preference by patients, especially men, is a rare thing. Men won't ask. They won't speak up. They tend to be less experienced with hospital care than do women. Because they don't speak up, I believe that many caregivers just think that everything's okay with them. But it isn't. And there seems to be no interest in the system to really learn about the role of gender in successful patient care, the role it may play in stress and patient recovery, the role that gendered care may play with those patients who have been sexually abused or assaulted. It's just assumed that gender plays little or no role in patient care. All this, however, is from the caregiver's point of view. Little interest or research into the patients point view on gender preference for intimate care and how contributes or harms patient health. A significant number of caregivers suffer from this serious blind spot. They make too many assumptions about with little research to back them up.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

I do seriously question one of your statements. It is this: "I very, very much doubt that any man is going to be more or less bothered by cares provided by a 16 vs 18 year old girl." I can't believe you've stereotyped men this way -- No man at all will be bothered by this?

*** Uh, I didn't say that.

Don't you think realistically it might depend upon the kind of care we're talking about? What if I told you that some men just don't prefer any intimate care from female caregivers regardless of her age. Would you believe that? How about women?

*** Of course, I have been a nurse a long time. No need to be condecending.

Are any women at all bothered by intimate care by a 16 to 18 year old male cna or nurse? Or from a male nurse of any age -- especially intimate care? Obviously, some are. Don't tell me otherwise.

*** I would never dream of saying something so stupid, What I said is that wether or not a patient is bothered by a male of female, they are not going to be more or less bothered if that CNA is 16 years old than if they where 18 years old. The two years in age is not going to matter to anyone. The OP stated she was concerned with her 16 yo daughter being exposed to old men's genitals and also stated she would have less problem if her daughter was 18 rather than 16.

Why would you think that no men at all would be bothered

*** Uh I NEVER said that.

-- or, do you believe that men as a gender just don't have any privacy or modesty concerns.

*** You are being condecending. Of course they do. However those that prefer to not have a young lady provide intimate cares won't care if the young lady is 16 vs 18. The two years in age will not bother men MORE when they are already bothered by having a young female provide such cares.

Sorry if I've sounded condescending. That's not my intent.

I think my concern here goes beyond gender, although I do

think that is an issue that is often overlooked. My concern

goes to training. I'm not convinced that aides as young as

16, even 18, can get 8 weeks of "training," mostly technical,

task-oriented training, and then be expected to have the

maturity to deal with patients at their most vulnerable.

Granted, you need to look at each individual and judge

that way, but overall, this is my position. RN's

especially, and LPN's to some degree have specific training

in communication, human sexuality and psychology and

sociology. Young aides in or right out of high school don't.

Here's a link that discusses this aide training issue and brings

up some of these points. I'd like to hear your responses to this

short article. My concern is that more and more these days,

these young aides are given more and more bedside

responsibilities that used to be those of educated,

experienced nurses. I'm not convinced that overall

they have the training, education or maturity for

this. What do you think?

http://www.ltlmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Blog&mod=BlogTopics&mid

=67D6564029914AD3B204AD35D8F5F780&tier

=7&id=964444C08B5445C2A43D2A545DF7969F

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
What do you think?

*** The link doesn't work for me.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

My concern

goes to training. I'm not convinced that aides as young as

16, even 18, can get 8 weeks of "training," mostly technical,

task-oriented training, and then be expected to have the

maturity to deal with patients at their most vulnerable.

*** I don't know where you live but I live in rural central Wisconsin where a heck of a lot of people still grow up on dairy farms. They have real and important responsibilities from a very young age. Besides the concern of the OP was on the effect on her daughter of dealing with elderly men's genitals, not the effect of her daughter on the patients.

Granted, you need to look at each individual and judge

that way, but overall, this is my position. RN's

especially, and LPN's to some degree have specific training

in communication, human sexuality and psychology and

sociology. Young aides in or right out of high school don't.

Here's a link that discusses this aide training issue and brings

up some of these points. I'd like to hear your responses to this

short article.

*** The age of the trainees isn't even mentioned except to note that some of them may not have been taught social skills that older people take for granted.

My concern is that more and more these days,

these young aides are given more and more bedside

responsibilities that used to be those of educated,

experienced nurses. I'm not convinced that overall

they have the training, education or maturity for

this. What do you think?

*** Well at age 17 I joined the military and by age 18 I was responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and making decision that affected the lives and health of other people. I (and many more young people) regularly made decisions that could get others killed or maimed. Being a CNA in a supervised environment seems pretty mild in comparison. Certainly there are going to be some people, of any age, who are not mature enough to deal with the kind of situations they will experience in health care. Based on my (limited) experience working with high school age CNAs (I work weekend program and that's when most of the younger CNAs work) I would say we have nothing to worry about. Weak individuals may occasionally need to be weeded out but that's why they are supervised.

None of your concerns seem to be shared by the OP and I am still wondering what she is worried about.

Are is completely irrelevent! Now maturity level is relivent!!! I have known some teenagers who are more mature then people in their 30's!! Truthfully if the kid is mature enough to handle it who cares how old she is.

How do some of you feel about younger people doing other jobs like collecting on credit card debt, managing a sports bar? Placing orders for a catalog company? Guess what I started collecting on credit card debt when I was 16 years old... how do some of you feel about that? When I was 17 I started managing a sports bar full time while still collecting cc debt parttime. I did a good job at both. I had access to peoples CC's all the time and I had access to basically any man at the bar i wanted to take home (which i would never do but i still could have).

It is NOT about the age it is about the maturity level!

To those of you that say that the men are not comfortable with a young girl helping them...

I have found it to swing the other way. The old men would rather have a young girl helping them. I have never had a resident state that they did not want someone to help them because of their age! NEVER! I have had them state they did not like peolpe because of their additude!!!! We have three high school girls working where I am. They do as good a job as most of the aides. They are not my favorite to work with simply because they do not always do their job to the best of their ability. However, many of the aides do not.

Many of hte residents like having the younger aides around as they bring a different feeling to the workplace and they remind them of other times in their lives!

If a situation arrises that someone is uncomfortable with a certain person doing their cares then i guess you cross that path when you get to it!

Let the kid do it!

Age and gender can be factors, but I do agree that we need judge individuals.

But, face it, society does have age restrictions based upon various criteria. So,

age can be a valid cut off for certain jobs and activities. And society does recognize

gender choices -- the BFOQ laws do allow gender discrimination under cetain

guidelines.

It's interesting to get various perceptions about how patients feel about this issue.

How men feel about this opposite gender intimate hasn't been seriously researched

-- so we don't really know. Although I respect your experiences and perceptions in this

area, I don't regard them as the end-all of this debate. Perceptions can be blinded

by group-think and cartloads of baggage and assumptions that one brings to a

situation. If you really want to come close to the truth, do surveys and studies

and actually ask patients about their values and attitudes. To just assume that

everybody's just happy with opposite gender intimate care may make you feel

good, but that doesn't necessarily make it the truth.

I do challenge any young 16-18 cna or nurse -- how you would feel if

you had to have some intimate procedure or work done, and in walked a 16-18

year old male cna or nurse with one or two of his male colleagues. The cliche

response is always, gender doesn't matter. But the reality is that, a 16-18 year

old male patient may have to face this situation with female cna's or nurses, but

this situation would never happen to a 16-18 year old female patient with one

or more male cna's or nurses. It wouldn't be allowed for various cultural, social

and mostly legal reasons.

But I do recognize that you're coming from an attitude that your gender

shouldn't matter -- and it shouldn't. You want to help people and make them better,

and gender shouldn't enter into this -- and it shouldn't. You have the patient's

interests and health at heart, and I respect that. So -- I think I've probably talked

this issue to death and will leave it now. But I wish you all the best, and I do respect

the important work you're doing and would trust my life and health to your hands.

Happy New Year.

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