I've been a lurker for awhile, and I know that this post has been brought up 1-2 times in the last 2 years that I've been an RN. So... you grouchy old farts that would rather I'd revive an old post can just stuff a sock in it. I want to gauge opinions based on our CURRENT situation after the shooting yesterday in San Bernadino, CA.
Truth be told, One single caregiver with a concealed carry permit could have shut this couple down before they hit 14 fatalities.
I plan on getting my CC in January, but I know as an RN, should my handgun be discovered, I'll probably lose my license. It will stay in my car when I am at work. If someone wants to carry out mayhem at my workplace, we are ALL sitting ducks. It is not ok or fair. What are your thoughts?
Having lived and worked in New Zealand, and traveled extensively, yes I do know what life is like in other places.
What foreigners don't understand about the USA is that it is Americans nature to kill each other (and people around the world ). We are basically a backwards ultra religious culture in a modern economy. Americans will go on killing each other until we progress culturely as other first world nations have.
The tools we us to slaughter each other don't really matter, remove one (as if that were possible) and we will simply use another.
There are bad people of every nationality, every culture, every religious group. To make a generalization that only Americans want to kill other Americans, is simply wacky. Further, if this were the case, why would so many immigrants want the 'American dream', as many still do (demonstrated by current situation). I believe a huge part of the terrorist issues (primarily ISIS) is they feel America is too liberal, allowing numerous freedoms and that Americans have it made and feel entitled (which is a whole 'nother issue with lots of younger people; won't start that here though!) I'm not saying America is perfect (very far from, to me) and certainly has it's own issues. but if more people agreed that Americans killing Americans will never stop, why would they want to flea here? Why not elsewhere, that is more 'culturally advanced' than the US? And, re-reading your post again, hasn't there been like a 30-40% drop in Americans stating they are religious, within the last 5 years? I heard that quite some time ago, so don't quote me on that, but yes, there certainly ARE religious extremists, but nothing in the US which remotely compares to other countries (again, exhibited by groups such as ISIS).
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
While, unfortunately, I have to agree to some extent with your description of American culture (although I would argue that it is still true that the vast majority of us never kill anyone, or even think seriously about killing anyone),
I have to disagree. While it may be true that most Americans will never personally kill anyone, the vast majority are quite blood thirsty and are very willing to have their killing done by proxy. I remember in 2003 some 80%of Americans were in favor of invading Iraq, a country that posed no threat to America and hadn't done much of anything to us. They wanted this despite knowing the it would result not only in the violent death of thousands of fine young Americans and the maiming of tens of thousands more, but also on the slaughter of an uncounted number of innocent Iraqi women and children. You may remember that America was almost alone in their desire to invade Iraq. Nearly the whole international community was aginst it. To me this demonstrates that Americans are different. Iraq is by no means the only example, mearly the more recent one. To me the person who is willing to hire the butcher is in no higher moral position than the butcher himself.
I disagree with your statement that the tools "don't really matter." Yes, people might still want, and try, to kill each other, but there is no denying that guns are simply much, much more effective "tools" for doing s
Ya, you are right. However with 300+million guns floating around the county it's simply fantasy to talk about getting rid of them. Talk of banning guns will immediately cause a loss of credibility as its in the fantasy realm. If that were possible ot would just be bombs next. We learned in Boston that bombs can be homemade, simple and effective.
People need to he careful what they wish for. Given that it's impossible to get rid of even most guns, what about banning the semi auto rifles and carbines that have been so popular among mass killers? I also know this is unrealistic, but let's just say it was possible. If somehow we could get rid of every semi auto rifle and handgun in the country, what would happen?
I submit that mass killing would continue, and the choice of weapons would still be guns. The last thing you want if people using deer rifles and shotguns instead of semiautomatic rifles. The AR type rifles that have been used are LOW POWER. They are specifically designed NOT to kill, but to wound. That is why they use such small and weak rounds. Substitute them for, let's say the most popular big game cartrige in the USA, the 30-06. Rifles for this round are available in bolt action, pump action, lever action, and others. I can easily get 40 to 60 rounds a minute off with a pump action 30-06, 40 with a bolt action. Unlike with recent mass shooting where the number of dead is much lower than the number of wounded, nearly all would be dead.
Here is what I am talking about.
The 223 that AR type rifled are chambered in hit with about 1,000 foot pounds of force at 100 yards. The 30-06 with 2,500 foot pounds of energy.
In addition most ammo for AR type rifles, and all that has been used in mass shootings has been FMJ (full Metal jacket) that is military type ammo that is designed to wound not kill. It doesn't expand on impact to create large wounds. Most 30-06 ammo is specifically designed to cause near instant death on deer and elk sized game. The bullets expand on impact to more than double their size to create a huge wound. Of course this is exactly what you want for a humane kill on game. I have a lot of experience treating wounds from military weapons as an army medic. I also have a lot of experience treating wounds caused by hunting guns in accidents as an RN in a rural trauma center. There is no comparison.
The shotgun is even more devistating, but only useful at short range.
If someone walks into a crowded movie theater with a club and starts clubbing people over the head, how much damage is he going to be able to do, compared to spraying a crowded theater with gunfire??
My guess is fewer that if a gun is used, and MANY fewer than if a bomb is used. Remember Oklahoma City.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Lets look at how well concealed carries have impacted on previous shootings and reduced the amount of people murdered or injured.
Some have been prevented by CC. Not that many but I think it's an unfair bar to hold CC to.
Far more often the CC has been used to prevent, or stop more mundane crime. Twice in my life carrying a concealed handgun has saved me from being killed or injured. In neither case did I fire the weapon. I. One case I didn't even take it out if the holster. My mom was involved in a situation where having a concealed handgun saved her life and she didn't need to fire it either.
Given the fact that CC has no proven to be dangerous, there simply are not many crimes committed by people carrying legal firearms, it's generally for the good that at least some law abiding citizens carry.
As a veteran, I'd have to say no. So many people are viewing mass shootings through some kind of video game mentality. 1) the gunman will probably shoot you if he seeing you trying to draw your weapon which means you've just given him another gun 2) let's say you do manage to get your gun out before reaching him, then all that means is that more bullets are flying around. You could end up being the one who shoots a coworker/patient or you could end up being shot because the police have no idea who the bad/good guy is. 3). Just because you have concealed carry, doesn't mean that people won't know that you've got a gun. You could be giving treatment and a disturbed patient could get his hands on your weapon.
We all like to imagine ourselves being a hero or being able to prevent a tragedy but real life rarely turns out how we imagine it. There is no magic solution to preventing mass shootings but there are ways to reduce the damage someone do. Relying on a gun to save you is just like replying on airport security stop a person who is carrying a bomb. It should be the last line of defense and it also means that the gunman/bomber has already succeeded in his goals. He's already decided to trade his life to kill as many people as possible. A bomber can kill just as many people in an airport as he can on a plane and a gunman will have to start shooting before someone with a concealed gun will know that he/she needs to use it.
Very interesting discussion but no one mentioned the logistics here. Your job is healthcare and saving lives. Perhaps more security would be in order. That way, you can care for the carnage about you instead of contributing to it.
I am an LPN in Home Hospice. I have been a CC permit holder since I was 21, over 27 years ago.
I have a concealed firearm at all times; in hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, personal care homes, and in private residences. I carry to Church, in stores, in banks - basically everywhere except the rare occasions when I'm in a government building. Very few people besides myself and my wife have ever discovered that fact.
I served in the US Army, and was briefly a police officer, so I have been well trained and stay in practice.
I'll just say this: I'll never be a helpless victim - ever. I might lose a job if I'm caught carrying, might even face prosecution. So what. I'm a (mostly) law-abiding, caring person that would never harm another person without justification and extreme provocation. It is my RIGHT to defend myself and my family. I will do so regardless of the preferences of other people. I am legally empowered to carry a concealed firearm and will do that as well, again, regardless of the wishes of others.
I'm a nurse, and proud of that fact. That does not mean there is some moral imperative that I be defenseless in the face of lunatics.
I'm all for it. Especially since things have been so crazy lately. I feel like at least one person on the floor should have a gun. Even if it's the RN manager and he/she keeps the gun in her office locked in a secure place. If **** hits the ceiling at least she can grab it and get things under control. I also worked in home care and been to bad neighborhoods and to be honest I feel safer going to the hood than in a medical facility. I feel like bid agencies and public service facilities are being targeted. When I worked at the hospital I rarely saw the security guys doing rounds on a floor and after it was only 2 guys the whole day for the entire hospital. I wonder how hard would it be to hide a gun under scrubs without being noticed?
Reports said the couple were carrying AR-15's and handguns and wearing body armor. A handgun round wouldn't have been too powerful against body armor. A rifle yes, but no a pistol.
With regards to the events in San Bernardino, it turns out they were wearing tactical vests, which the press automatically translates as body armor. It is not. Tactical vests have lots of pockets for carrying more ammo, etc. but they offer no protection.
That being said, those who do wear body armor are still exposed to gunfire to their heads, arms, and legs. That leaves a fair amount of targets for a motivated defender to attack. What's more, these people are cowards. I don't expect them to continue on in their mission if anybody effectively stands up to them.
I really wish that this country would recognize that people who've gone to the trouble of obtaining a concealed carry permit should either be trusted anywhere or not be trusted at all. I have such a permit and I assure you, I am the same man whether I'm in a grocery store or in a school. The state thought I was worth taking a chance on and I am grateful for the ability to effectively defend myself if I get in a potentially lethal jam.
My gun has saved me from what could have been lethal for me twice now in my lifetime: once against a baseball bat and once against a large hunting knife. Both times were in darkened parking lots. Both times all I had to do was expose my weapon and my assailants decided to pick another victim. I have never so much as pulled my weapon yet I believe I wouldn't be here today had I not had a gun readily available.
So now we get to what to do in a hospital setting. My hospital placarded the front door against the possession of firearms on the premises. I chose to misinterpret that to mean that while I shouldn't bring it inside, I could leave it locked in my car. That's what I and many other nurses did. The only way the hospital would ever have known would have been if they had searched my vehicle. I figured the chances of that were essentially zero and I was right. What they didn't know didn't hurt them.
The truth of the matter is that we were fish in a barrel inside. Security wasn't armed and the chances of a single cop being anywhere on the property were slim. We might as well have worked with a big bullseye on our scrubs for all the protection we had. Hospitals protect by an ongoing project of wishing and hoping nothing ever happens. You know... like an ostrich.
I want to gauge opinions based on our CURRENT situation after the shooting yesterday in San Bernadino, CA. 
crazin01
290 Posts
There are bad people of every nationality, every culture, every religious group. To make a generalization that only Americans want to kill other Americans, is simply wacky. Further, if this were the case, why would so many immigrants want the 'American dream', as many still do (demonstrated by current situation). I believe a huge part of the terrorist issues (primarily ISIS) is they feel America is too liberal, allowing numerous freedoms and that Americans have it made and feel entitled (which is a whole 'nother issue with lots of younger people; won't start that here though!) I'm not saying America is perfect (very far from, to me) and certainly has it's own issues. but if more people agreed that Americans killing Americans will never stop, why would they want to flea here? Why not elsewhere, that is more 'culturally advanced' than the US? And, re-reading your post again, hasn't there been like a 30-40% drop in Americans stating they are religious, within the last 5 years? I heard that quite some time ago, so don't quote me on that, but yes, there certainly ARE religious extremists, but nothing in the US which remotely compares to other countries (again, exhibited by groups such as ISIS).