why are cna's treated like they are stupid and replaceable?

kellisdomain · Apr 10, 2005

Sunstreak Texas hires Certified Medication Aides... I was licensed as one... It is a six month program and CMA's cannot pass all meds. CMA's are under the supervision of charge nurse.

Also, you were asking about cather insertions from CNA's..the nursing home I worked in Texas we had to do it because the nurse did not want to do it...I outright told her that if state came in I could get fired for changing a colostomy bag but she didnt care and told us aides that "she was not changing it". So what did we do? We changed it.. There is no way I would have left my resident lying there with a dirty bag.... Hope it doesn't happen to her one day..

I do agree that just as there are bad/good CNA's there are also bad/good nurses. The majority nurses I have worked with were wonderful and supportive.

Town & Country · Apr 10, 2005

The first link didn't work, and the second was for PROPOSED changes.

Sunstreak Texas hires Certified Medication Aides... I was licensed as one... It is a six month program and CMA's cannot pass all meds. CMA's are under the supervision of charge nurse.

I didn't say that there are not Medication Aides, or Med Techs. This is NOT the same thing as a CNA. You said yourself it is a 6-month PROGRAM.

This is what I was referrring to when I posted:

To pass meds, a CNA must take a course to become a CMT (certified med tech), at least where I am from and where I've worked.

Also, you were asking about cather insertions from CNA's..the nursing home I worked in Texas we had to do it because the nurse did not want to do it...I outright told her that if state came in I could get fired for changing a colostomy bag but she didnt care and told us aides that "she was not changing it". So what did we do? We changed it.. There is no way I would have left my resident lying there with a dirty bag.... Hope it doesn't happen to her one day..

No offense, but you just proved my point that it is "not allowed" for a CNA to place a catheter or change a colostomy bag - you said yourself "I outright told her that if state came in I could get fired for changing a colostomy bag" -

---the nurse said she "didn't care" and "she wasn't changing it?"

Well obviously, the thing to do was to report her.

Not to do it for her.

You could lose your job for that, to say the very least.

punnit_square · Apr 10, 2005

I would REALLY like to know what LTC facility would even allow a NA to do these things......?
It doesn't matter if you have "previous nurses training"....if you are not a LPN or RN, you CANNOT do what you are describing.
What state are you in?
Personally, I read these posts about how nurses supposedly treat nurse aides like s**t, but in "the real world" that I inhabit, more often than not it is the nurse who gets abused.....it's a challenge to even get most nurse aides to do their jobs.
I have worked at several LTC facilities.
The last one, we had a man who would lie in his own excrement for hours, and the aides wouldn't clean him....
And no, I don't think I'm "too good" to "wipe butts", but when I'm doing a 2100 med pass, it's not easy to stop and do a COMPLETE bed change, including doing a bed bath, because they've laid in s**t for hours! Need I mention that the CNAs are doing rounds at the time? :angryfire
I always help them. I take people to the toilet when they need to go. To and from the dining room....helping the residents change clothes, do this or do that..if I am in their room and they need assitance, they get it from me...so don't even go there with the "nurses need to help", I've heard it too often.
We can do their job, but if we do their job and they never left a finger, who will pass meds? Who will do the assessments? As nurses, we have tasks that we MUST do.....and that we are responsible for.
That's why people are hired as "nurse aides"....because we need help. Unfortunately, all too often, we don't get it from the people who are being paid for that very thing.
And yes I do agree that CNAs are woefully underpaid. Their job is VITAL. What they are doing is truly important. Thank God for the good CNAs who understand that it isn't all about money. No that doesn't negate their legitimate complaint that they are underpaid; but that is no reason to not do their jobs. The true satisfaction comes from making a difference in the resident's lives, anyway, and yes that applies to us nurses, too..........

Sun, States like NC are basically trying to eliminate LPNs (and keep them in LTC only). The LPNs that are working in hospitals must go back to school and get their degree within 36 months or they will lose their job. They have CNA training courses that add up to the amount of time an LPN will spend in a Vo-tech and these training programs do provide the tech with rationales behind what they are doing and some critical thinking. In the state of CO, an RN MUST have a BSN or she is considered an LPN (and basically does basic nursing care). And as far as an Aid not succombing to legality if a resident falls on the floor, if the fall is reported to a Human services agency and deemed as neglect yes, a certification can be revoked and yes Aides can be sued for negligent practice. It is up to HR and your DON to carefully select his/her staff for what is right for the facility. I understand that a med pass is not easy, nor is doing treatments, but being a CNA in a LTC facility is extremely physically and mentally stressful. Tell me the last time a resident punched you in the jaw for trying to keep him clean and dry.

truern · Apr 10, 2005

No offense, but you just proved my point that it is "not allowed" for a CNA to place a catheter or change a colostomy bag - you said yourself "I outright told her that if state came in I could get fired for changing a colostomy bag" -

---the nurse said she "didn't care" and "she wasn't changing it?"

In NC, a CNAII can place a catheter and other tasks...

http://www.ncbon.com/prac-naiitasks.asp

punnit_square · Apr 10, 2005

The first link didn't work, and the second was for PROPOSED changes.

I didn't say that there are not Medication Aides, or Med Techs. This is NOT the same thing as a CNA. You said yourself it is a 6-month PROGRAM.
This is what I was referrring to when I posted:

No offense, but you just proved my point that it is "not allowed" for a CNA to place a catheter or change a colostomy bag - you said yourself "I outright told her that if state came in I could get fired for changing a colostomy bag" -
---the nurse said she "didn't care" and "she wasn't changing it?"
Well obviously, the thing to do was to report her.
Not to do it for her.
You could use your job for that, to say the very least.

LTC= no invasive procedures by the CNA but changing ostomy bags and wafer's are acceptable but only the the facility's policies and procedures. When I worked as a CNA in NY and then FL, I have done ostomy care including stoma care . . . just depends on your facility. NY CNAs do enemas, in LTC in Fl, no. But at the same time in Florida, why become an RN when LPNs get pretty much the same pay and do most of the same procedures that an RN does. No differentiation in FL btwn RNs and LPNs.

Town & Country · Apr 10, 2005

The link you posted includes info that a cna must have additional training to become a Nurse Aide II, and do to trach care, etc.

Nurse Aide II Tasks Performed by Nurse Aide I Personnel*
Agency: ____________________________________________________________
Address:____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
Phone: _____________________________________________________________
List below the Nurse Aide II task(s) to be performed by Nurse Aide I personnel in your agency. For each task listed, identify the approved curriculum used in training and indicate the effective date of the written policy and procedure for the performance of this task by the Nurse Aide I.
1) Curriculum Name:_______________________
Curriculum has been: (a) Board-developed (Module # __________)
(b) Agency developed and Board approved on ________(date)
Written policy and procedure effective as of ____________ (date)
2) Curriculum Name:_______________________
Curriculum has been: (a) Board-developed (Module # __________)
(b) Agency developed and Board approved on ________(date)
Written policy and procedure effective as of ____________ (date)
3) Curriculum Name:_______________________
Curriculum has been: (a) Board-developed (Module # __________)
(b) Agency developed and Board approved on ________(date)
Written policy and procedure effective as of ____________ (date)
4) Curriculum Name:_______________________
Curriculum has been: (a) Board-developed (Module # __________)
(b) Agency developed and Board approved on ________(date)
Written policy and procedure effective as of ____________ (date)
As the Chief Nurse Administrator, I hereby verify that the requirements set forth by the North Carolina Board of Nursing for Nurse Aide I personnel performing the above listed Nurse Aide II tasks in this clinical agency, including documentation of the clinical competency of each Nurse Aide I for each task to be performed, have been met.
Date:____________________ Signature:_________________________________________________
Print Name: ____________________________________ Title:_______________________________
*PLEASE NOTE THAT EACH AGENCY MAY CHOOSE NO MORE THAN FOUR NURSE AIDE II TASKS TO BE PERFORMED BY THAT AGENCY BY NURSE AIDE I PERSONNEL WHO HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE ENTIRE NURSE AIDE II TRAINING AND COMPETENCY EVALUATION PROGRAM.
NOTE: THE STERILE TECHNIQUE MODULE (#3) IS INCLUDED AS A REQUIRED COMPONENT OF THE
FOLLOWING MODULES:
MODULE #4 - WOUND CARE
MODULE #5 - SUCTIONING
MODULE #6 - TRACHEOSTOMY CARE
MODULE #7 - PERIPHERAL IV FLUIDS
MODULE #8 - URINARY CATHETER

I haven't ever worked with Nurse Aides II, but the BON link you posted states that they require additional training, etc......

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Apr 10, 2005

But at the same time in Florida, why become an RN when LPNs get pretty much the same pay and do most of the same procedures that an RN does. No differentiation in FL btwn RNs and LPNs.

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but this needs correction.

I have no idea where you got your information, but that information is simply not true.

punnit_square · Apr 10, 2005

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but this needs correction.
I have no idea where you got your information, but that information is simply not true.

I am busting my butt paying quite a bit for a BSN and my starting wages will be comparable to that of an LPN. From what I have seen in my clinicals, LPNs are doing pretty much the same thing the RN is doing. The one difference I have seen is an LPN can not give a Narc push via IV. Now, if it is different in your neck of the woods, then I need to relocate.

punnit_square · Apr 10, 2005

Yes, all together it is a 6 month training program for the NA II. This is why many of the hospitals do not hire LPNs. The NA II does everything the LPN does minus a med pass and physical assessment.

BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN · Apr 10, 2005

isn't that the truth! that nurse needs to try and do her job without a good cna.

i have tried. every day that i go to work.

first off, we need to stop generalizing. :smiley_ab i am so fed up with the support staff where i work. they barely do their vital signs, let alone personal care. i work in peds, where the majority of personal care is done by the parent. but there are cases where there is no parent there. we have a kid who has been in and out of the hospital for the last 6 months (was in for 90% of that time). they don't touch this kid, and it's not like they're waiting for the parent to come (we know it's not happening)!! one aide actually changes her diaper (i will give her credit). but how can someone walk into a room, do vitals, and walk out without checking her diaper? and don't say "the nurse can do it too", because that's who ends up doing it (if we don't it doesn't get done- i wish i was exaggerating). and these are the same aides who trip over urinals on their way out of the room. so who does it, we do!! i've said it before, and i'll say it again, we can do everything they do, but who is left to do our work???? and we don't have a leg to stand on, b/c as soon as a nurse complains, they come in with a union rep (the nurses are not unionized). eyes and ears, my tush!!!

i know this thread was originally speaking about ltc. i also sup in a (peds) ltc. i can proudly say the exact opposite is true here. here, they do so much for these kids, and staffing is really good (usually). they do everything for these kids- head to toe (and everything in between). and i've told them how much i (even though i'm just a sup) value what they do here. the aides in the hosp do a quarter of what they do in ltc, and complain twice as much. but it will never change, because it's gone on for too far. and they think they have no responsibilty to their pts. that what gets me the most :angryfire okay, you're not a nurse, but you are providing patient care (or barely)...

mattsmom81 · Apr 10, 2005

Why are CNA's treated as stupid and replaceable? Well, because nurses are too. As our assistants, why expect anything else?

Do I sound bitter? Well yes. But the truth hurts. Nurses are discarded when they get older, are injured, or don't support the management bottom line. And they round up the newest group of new grads and import the rest they need...to replace us.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Apr 10, 2005

I am busting my butt paying quite a bit for a BSN and my starting wages will be comparable to that of an LPN. From what I have seen in my clinicals, LPNs are doing pretty much the same thing the RN is doing. The one difference I have seen is an LPN can not give a Narc push via IV. Now, if it is different in your neck of the woods, then I need to relocate.

Maybe you need to work somewhere else? We're both in Florida. You can look up the Nurse Practice Act on the BON website. The differences between the RN and the LPN are spelled out pretty clearly there.

At my facility, I have to do the LPN's admission assessments. Our LPNs can give IVP narcs and do central line draws only if they have passed an IV Cert class. Unlike the RN, the LPN cannot work independently and must work under the direction of an RN.

There's a bigger difference between my salary and the LPN's than there is between my salary and the BSN's. I make about $5/hour more than the LPN, but only about $1/hr less than the BSN.

PS We greatly value our PCTs. I think they're the best! We encourage them to further their nursing career with a nice tuition reimbursement program. Many places don't value their CNAs, but I've known many dedicated CNAs who've saved patients' lives. I wish they'd get paid a living wage for all they do.