Bullying - What is it?

[RNdynamic]

A lot of threads discuss whether or not bullying is rampant. I want to give some examples of behaviors and I am interested in people to tell me which one(s) consist of bullying, rude behavior, or social abuse.

(1) A nurse grabbing a sheet from her orientee's hands, stating in a raised voice that "its too sloppy, give it to me" so that she can fold it herself over a patient.

(2) A nurse not letting her orientee go to lunch or cover their orientee's lunch because the orientee had to catch up on documentation, even though the nurse had taken lunch herself.

(3) A nurse loudly commanding their orientee in the nurses station to finish their documentation before doing anything else because they don't want to get out late.

(4) A nurse asking another nurse "why did you needlestick yourself?" after an accidental needlestick that requires the nurse to go to occ health.

(5) A nurse asking another nurse during ICU handoff why they didn't obtain an order to replete their patients potassium of 3.8.

These are real life situations that I have experienced or observed. In my opinion, the majority of them demonstrate the height of rudeness. The last one demonstrates someone suggesting that a nurse didn't follow their patient's labs to replete their normal potassium level to one that was more normal.

[nandosport]

The ED where I worked had a physician who was notorious for screaming at nursing staff, even getting physical. Nothing was done until she threw a used syringe at a nurse. The needle broke her skin, and to make matters worse, the patient was HIV+. This was in the early years of the AIDS crisis, when being HIV+ was usually a death sentence. When the nurse got an atty., the hospital finally let the doctor go.

Considering the harangue I'm getting for having misread the OP's comment about lunch, I'm sures/he will find persecution on the job at every turn.

I would've lost my job that day.

[RNdynamic]

This is getting very repetitive. By actual count, you have here a lot of responses from long-term, mature, self-confident, very experienced nurses who, I would wager, might or might not have gotten their panties in a twist when these things happened to them when they were new grads on orientation. And now they have moved on.

I don't see these people as passive wimpies prone to rolling over for bullying and denying it exists. I see them as people who have learned that the world of work, especially work in stressful milieus, requires acquiring the ability to have a broader perspective and a thicker skin, and they have matured enough to do that. They have seen true bullying (being physically shoved, pinched, cars keyed, being sworn at in front of others, belongings vandalized, threatened with physical harm) and can tell the difference between rudeness, crassness, bad management ... and real bullying itself.

I don't see it that way. I see them as limited people who have never known anything else.

The fact that we have two self-indulgent people in this thread who (1) have a signature proclaiming that they are a "crusty old bat" and (2) another who proudly proclaims that they are a "fat, old nurse" speaks volumes about the role models these types might expect. It's just sad; there's nothing good about being crusty or fat (I don't care as much about old) and I wouldn't want any nurse with those traits being a polestar for our profession.. Do you see recruitment ads for any profession talking about awesome any of those traits are? Probably not.

I don't know that any of normal people aspire to be crusty or fat, but hey... what do I know. So what is expected by advertising that? Congratulations on being a fat, crusty gasbag? Nice.

A lot of the debate on this forum dwells on the the idea that nurses are supposed to be professionals, but act like or are treated more like vocational service laborers. I think that's sad. Professionals don't have to miss lunch. Vocational service laborers often do. Which do you want nursing to be, and which role do you want to defend? Being fat, crusty, and complacent, and a service laborer? Or being youthful, clean, and caring, and a professional?

Food for thought -- for the limited people out there.

[TriciaJ, RN]

If all the behaviours in the original post were directed at one person by one person: definitely bullying. Bullying has to be deliberate and systematic, by one person or group of people toward a specific target. If one person engages in all those behaviours toward everyone, then that person is a bully. But it's really hard to make a case for bullying on isolated incidents. Too many other plausible explanations (that don't necessarily excuse the behaviour).

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

I don't see it that way. I see them as limited people who have never known anything else.

The fact that we have two self-indulgent people in this thread who have (1) a signature proclaiming that they are a "crusty old bat" '.

The self-proclaimed crusty old bats are some of the posters I have learned the most from here at allnurses. And it may help to know the back story of the crusty old bat phrase- it came about after a newbie showed up, showing an attitude of extreme entitlement, and used it in a derogatory manner. Rather than get offended, us crusty old bats and future crusty old bats claimed the phrase and turned it into an inside joke.

I honestly don't see anything in your original post that equates bullying. I see some rudeness/bluntness. The lunch thing is edging on the line, but what's the full back story? Is it a chronic issue where charting is happening late? That speaks of a need to hone time management skills- there isn't always time to catch up on charting later, and it can put a patient at risk because, as the legal eagles will tell you, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen.

[RNdynamic]

The self-proclaimed crusty old bats are some of the posters I have learned the most from here at allnurses. And it may help to know the back story of the crusty old bat phrase- it came about after a newbie showed up, showing an attitude of extreme entitlement, and used it in a derogatory manner. Rather than get offended, us crusty old bats and future crusty old bats claimed the phrase and turned it into an inside joke.

Right. Good luck with your crust. Maybe you want to glorify your flatulence next? It's in the same degree of crudeness and self-deprecation. And I'm sure it does wonders for advancing nursing.

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

Right. Good luck with your crust. Maybe you want to glorify your flatulence next? It's in the same degree of crudeness and self-deprecation. And I'm sure it does wonders for advancing nursing.

And that quote is pretty much you providing an example of what you rail against in your posts. Pot, meet kettle.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

I think you miss the inside joke on the "crusty old bat" club, but can see where perhaps crusty and fat might not be good attributes, but you "don't care as much about old"? How is old not a desirable attribute? Are you planning to jump in front of a train before you hit 30?

As for who is more likely to miss lunch? Professionals volunteer to have working lunches. Or to take a late lunch to catch up on work before eating. More often it's laborers that demand a lunch at a particular time.

And really, calling others "limited" and that they should prefer being "youthful" and "clean" when you're complaining about being bullied? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle dumb, old and with poor hygiene? (And since I started the post, now with flatulence! Apparently the younger generation uses potty humor when they start bullying!)

[ERRN-BSN]

I think those examples just make the person an ****, not a bully, but I guess the line is kind of blurry there. By using the term a-hole instead of bully though, I feel like it's less of a victim mentality. I've dealt with many a-holes in many different parts of life. Calling them bullies and implementing bullying policies won't make them any less of an a-hole and won't make them magically go away.

Basically, I just feel like the term "bully" is being over used and creating a victimhood mentality that is only contributing to the problem it's trying to solve. To me, bully is someone abusing their power for absolutely no reason except to show they have the power to do so. In the examples you gave, the perpetrator was a-hole, but they were still trying to make a point, just in a very ineffective and rude way. To me that's different than bullying.

I'm not sure I follow this. Bullying is rampant in children and what kind of power do they possess in order to be considered so?

I think bullying is an action that allows someone to feel powerful, not use a power to be a bully. Pseudo-power.

[OCNRN63, RN]

I don't see it that way. I see them as limited people who have never known anything else.

The fact that we have two self-indulgent people in this thread who (1) have a signature proclaiming that they are a "crusty old bat" and (2) another who proudly proclaims that they are a "fat, old nurse" speaks volumes about the role models these types might expect. It's just sad; there's nothing good about being crusty or fat (I don't care as much about old) and I wouldn't want any nurse with those traits being a polestar for our profession.. Do you see recruitment ads for any profession talking about awesome any of those traits are? Probably not.

I don't know that any of normal people aspire to be crusty or fat, but hey... what do I know. So what is expected by advertising that? Congratulations on being a fat, crusty gasbag? Nice.

A lot of the debate on this forum dwells on the the idea that nurses are supposed to be professionals, but act like or are treated more like vocational service laborers. I think that's sad. Professionals don't have to miss lunch. Vocational service laborers often do. Which do you want nursing to be, and which role do you want to defend? Being fat, crusty, and complacent, and a service laborer? Or being youthful, clean, and caring, and a professional?

Food for thought -- for the limited people out there.

Must we explain the origin of the "Crusty Old Bat" moniker? I'm astounded that you do not think that older nurses have a place in this profession. (Your words: You think nursing should be a "youthful" profession." Who said any of these posters was dirty/unclean. (Your words again" You said it should be a 'clean' profession." What is your bias against people who have against people with a weight problem? Where in any of those posts did anyone say s/he was uncaring or unprofessional? Why are you calling people here gasbags?

Your post is littered with insults. Ironic, since we're talking about bullying.

[OCNRN63, RN]

Right. Good luck with your crust. Maybe you want to glorify your flatulence next? It's in the same degree of crudeness and self-deprecation. And I'm sure it does wonders for advancing nursing.

OK, now you are being not only immature, but a bully too.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

I don't see it that way. I see them as limited people who have never known anything else.

The fact that we have two self-indulgent people in this thread who (1) have a signature proclaiming that they are a "crusty old bat" and (2) another who proudly proclaims that they are a "fat, old nurse" speaks volumes about the role models these types might expect. It's just sad; there's nothing good about being crusty or fat (I don't care as much about old) and I wouldn't want any nurse with those traits being a polestar for our profession.. Do you see recruitment ads for any profession talking about awesome any of those traits are? Probably not.

I don't know that any of normal people aspire to be crusty or fat, but hey... what do I know. So what is expected by advertising that? Congratulations on being a fat, crusty gasbag? Nice.

A lot of the debate on this forum dwells on the the idea that nurses are supposed to be professionals, but act like or are treated more like vocational service laborers. I think that's sad. Professionals don't have to miss lunch. Vocational service laborers often do. Which do you want nursing to be, and which role do you want to defend? Being fat, crusty, and complacent, and a service laborer? Or being youthful, clean, and caring, and a professional?

Food for thought -- for the limited people out there.

You probably weren't around during the time when we had copious threads about now the workplace was full of "crusty old biter nurses" and "ugly old bats" and "old dinosaurs who just ought to retire and get out of my way so I can rock the ER or OR or ICU." Those of us who were around then, and were old enough to be those dinosauers of whom they spoke, rather than whining about how mistreated we were, adopted the term "Crusty Old Bat" in response and wore it proudly. Hospitals may not be recruiting crusty old bats, but most of them realize that the ones they have are pretty darned valuable.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Another topic? My comments on another forum that defend my views on it keep being deleted and/or removed. Censorship is alive and well on these forums. 

Moderation is alive and well -- and these forums are much more civilized than many others as a result. From personal experience, I can tell you that posts that are disrespectful get deleted, well-reasoned and respectful posts do not.