BSN minimum requirement

cmggriff · Mar 16, 2001

Well, There are some really well thought out posts in this thread. And there are some that seem to be instant reactions to thoughts or ideas that have somehow opened old wounds. Still, at least no one has armed themselves and begun killing those who have insulted or injured.

I have a BA in English and an AD in nursing. I once thought that requiring a BSN for entry would be good for me by lowering the potential candidates for nursing. This would make my skills rarer and more valuable. But now I am worried. I have seen what the government is capable of doing to alleviate or prevent a perceived crisis. If something is not done soon to increase the supply of RN's, I am afraid Congress may come up with some "temporary" remedy such as reducing the requirements. There is a crisis. We are not the cause, but I think we need to be the solution.

Some of the posts here show very incisive critical thinking, creative problem solving and strong desires to improve both individuals and the profession of Nursing. Some have not been so pleasant. So, I propose

that we who feel we have identified the problems and/or the solutions, get together politically and work out some compromise or agreement. If we do not take matters into our own hands, those that do may not treat us as well as we been treating one another on this board.

cmggriff · Mar 16, 2001

Well, There are some really well thought out posts in this thread. And there are some that seem to be instant reactions to thoughts or ideas that have somehow opened old wounds. Still, at least no one has armed themselves and begun killing those who have insulted or injured.

I have a BA in English and an AD in nursing. I once thought that requiring a BSN for entry would be good for me by lowering the potential candidates for nursing. This would make my skills rarer and more valuable. But now I am worried. I have seen what the government is capable of doing to alleviate or prevent a perceived crisis. If something is not done soon to increase the supply of RN's, I am afraid Congress may come up with some "temporary" remedy such as reducing the requirements. There is a crisis. We are not the cause, but I think we need to be the solution.

Some of the posts here show very incisive critical thinking, creative problem solving and strong desires to improve both individuals and the profession of Nursing. Some have not been so pleasant. So, I propose

that we who feel we have identified the problems and/or the solutions, get together politically and work out some compromise or agreement. If we do not take matters into our own hands, those that do may not treat us as well as we been treating one another on this board.

MollyJ · Mar 16, 2001

Originally posted by Charles S. Smith, RN, MS:
...But, given the emergence of serious crises in healthcare financing, our overall economy, the latest statistics on the nursing shortage, the looming prospect that there will not be enough nurses to take care of you and me when we need care, and the restlessness of the current RN force, all beg the question "are we missing something here?". My view is that we are indeed missing something. We now have the challenge to create what the professional nursing ROLE must look like for the future. The timing has never been better and the impetus for change has never been as compelling. I appreciate your continued dialogue..

best regards
chas

I am intrigued. What would a re-shaping of the role look like? My presence in a public high school has shown me that one of the blessings and dilemmas of nursing is that our role is somewhat analagous to the teacher. I takes a lot of teachers to do the job. It probably takes a certain level of education to do the job well. Delegating the actual day to day task of educating to paras would surely, I believe, reduce the quality of the end product. I believe similar analogies occur in nursing. And yet the sheer numbers of us needed by the public and health care industry mean that we have unique problems. I think because there are so many of us, we will never aspire to having the status in the world that you have when your skills are relatively rare and indemand. We only need one CEO, a few brain surgeons, one DON and those "rare, highly prized" roles get more status. So how do we re-shape this role? What would that look like? Are we talking the designation of the technical vs the professional nurse? Give me more.

Thanks for the discussion.

MollyJ · Mar 16, 2001

Originally posted by Charles S. Smith, RN, MS:
...But, given the emergence of serious crises in healthcare financing, our overall economy, the latest statistics on the nursing shortage, the looming prospect that there will not be enough nurses to take care of you and me when we need care, and the restlessness of the current RN force, all beg the question "are we missing something here?". My view is that we are indeed missing something. We now have the challenge to create what the professional nursing ROLE must look like for the future. The timing has never been better and the impetus for change has never been as compelling. I appreciate your continued dialogue..

best regards
chas

I am intrigued. What would a re-shaping of the role look like? My presence in a public high school has shown me that one of the blessings and dilemmas of nursing is that our role is somewhat analagous to the teacher. I takes a lot of teachers to do the job. It probably takes a certain level of education to do the job well. Delegating the actual day to day task of educating to paras would surely, I believe, reduce the quality of the end product. I believe similar analogies occur in nursing. And yet the sheer numbers of us needed by the public and health care industry mean that we have unique problems. I think because there are so many of us, we will never aspire to having the status in the world that you have when your skills are relatively rare and indemand. We only need one CEO, a few brain surgeons, one DON and those "rare, highly prized" roles get more status. So how do we re-shape this role? What would that look like? Are we talking the designation of the technical vs the professional nurse? Give me more.

Thanks for the discussion.

jtfreel · Mar 16, 2001

Nursing will never be accepted as a "true profession" (in my opinion) as long as the health care system needs a practice group to do the dirty work-regardless of the education level of the members of that practice group.

Example: Who picks up when the Pharmacy, Respiratory therapy, Phlebotomy, Business Office, Physical Therapy and housekeeping are closed or otherwise unavailable? When this is the practice, who benefits-financially? (Hint: if you want to really see who has the clout, follow the money trail: if one department is doing another's work WITHOUT receiving the financial benefits-you have found the organization's official grunts.)

What does all of this have to do with educational levels: plenty. Keep it stirred up and you keep the practice group diverted from the obvious.

Recommendation. Follow the medical practice model. Entry level is the general practitioner. A physician who chooses to specialize receives additional educational and training.

In study after study, all graduates who pass the NCLEX are licensed to practice in beginning professional roles. Regardless of personal opinions, graduates from all schools are performing as equals on this examination. In some states ADN graduate score averages are slightly higher than BSN, in other states the BSN is slightly higher.

In employer surveys, it has been reported time and time again that there is no statistical difference between the performance of these 2 groups from the employers point of veiw.

It is time for this to stop. If we do not consider ourselves a profession, no one else ever will. If we do consider ourselves a profession, it makes no difference what anyone else thinks.

jtfreel · Mar 16, 2001

Nursing will never be accepted as a "true profession" (in my opinion) as long as the health care system needs a practice group to do the dirty work-regardless of the education level of the members of that practice group.

Example: Who picks up when the Pharmacy, Respiratory therapy, Phlebotomy, Business Office, Physical Therapy and housekeeping are closed or otherwise unavailable? When this is the practice, who benefits-financially? (Hint: if you want to really see who has the clout, follow the money trail: if one department is doing another's work WITHOUT receiving the financial benefits-you have found the organization's official grunts.)

What does all of this have to do with educational levels: plenty. Keep it stirred up and you keep the practice group diverted from the obvious.

Recommendation. Follow the medical practice model. Entry level is the general practitioner. A physician who chooses to specialize receives additional educational and training.

In study after study, all graduates who pass the NCLEX are licensed to practice in beginning professional roles. Regardless of personal opinions, graduates from all schools are performing as equals on this examination. In some states ADN graduate score averages are slightly higher than BSN, in other states the BSN is slightly higher.

In employer surveys, it has been reported time and time again that there is no statistical difference between the performance of these 2 groups from the employers point of veiw.

It is time for this to stop. If we do not consider ourselves a profession, no one else ever will. If we do consider ourselves a profession, it makes no difference what anyone else thinks.

fergus51 · Mar 16, 2001

I am not sure I understand how your programs work. We have a 3 year diploma and a 4 year BSN at the Unis in our province. The first 3 years are EXACTLY the same for all the students. The BSNs just stay in another year so they actually get MORE clinical time not less.

I don't understand where the "BSNs are useless" arguement comes from. Surely not every BSN program is all about humanities. Even if they were I don't think ANY new grad is really ready for practice They need the help and SUPPORT of the experienced nurses on the floor (ADNs or BSNs or whatever!). Don't you all remember the feeling in the pit of your stomachs when you were thrown to the wolves in your first job? (Those that say they were always confident in their skills right off the bat are either forgetful or dellusional). It was only with the help of the nurses on the floor who didn't hate me because of my education level that I didn't go nuts and start picking doctors off with a high powered rifle.

Why don't we try to help the new "useless conceited" BSN and "uneducated" ADN nurses instead of having to put them down to make ourselves feel less threatenned?

fergus51 · Mar 16, 2001

I am not sure I understand how your programs work. We have a 3 year diploma and a 4 year BSN at the Unis in our province. The first 3 years are EXACTLY the same for all the students. The BSNs just stay in another year so they actually get MORE clinical time not less.

I don't understand where the "BSNs are useless" arguement comes from. Surely not every BSN program is all about humanities. Even if they were I don't think ANY new grad is really ready for practice They need the help and SUPPORT of the experienced nurses on the floor (ADNs or BSNs or whatever!). Don't you all remember the feeling in the pit of your stomachs when you were thrown to the wolves in your first job? (Those that say they were always confident in their skills right off the bat are either forgetful or dellusional). It was only with the help of the nurses on the floor who didn't hate me because of my education level that I didn't go nuts and start picking doctors off with a high powered rifle.

Why don't we try to help the new "useless conceited" BSN and "uneducated" ADN nurses instead of having to put them down to make ourselves feel less threatenned?

JennieBSN · Mar 16, 2001

About half of the posts here are constructive, and actually worth reading. HOWEVER, I am sick and tired of hearing non-BSN nurses make these IGNORANT generalizations!! Why is it 'okay' to insult someone and hate someone who has a college degree, but not the reverse? It's STUPID. I find it interesting that not a single BSN on this thread has said that ADN's are 'useless,' and 'incompetent,' but the ADN'S and LPN'S have felt free to say these things about the BSN's. Those of you who make these sweeping generalizations make me worry...do you also make sweeping generalizations about people of different races, gender, or religious affiliation based on ONE or a FEW experiences? I believe that is called PREJUDICE. Look it up in the dictionary...it means to PRE-JUDGE. That's exactly what you're doing by making statements like 'all BSN schools are inferior,' and 'all BSN nurses are unprepared to practice at the bedside.' It is attitudes and prejudices EXACTLY like the ADN's and LPN's on this thread have expressed that make for a hostile, non-supportive working environment. Just as you assert (correctly) that all ADN's and LPN's are not ignorant simply because they do not have a bachelor's degree, I must assert that all BSN's are not bumbling, unprepared, elitist snobs either. Good God, people...knock the chip off your shoulder and stop making such hostile, judgemental generalizations. You make yourselves look like a bunch of jerks.

JennieBSN · Mar 16, 2001

About half of the posts here are constructive, and actually worth reading. HOWEVER, I am sick and tired of hearing non-BSN nurses make these IGNORANT generalizations!! Why is it 'okay' to insult someone and hate someone who has a college degree, but not the reverse? It's STUPID. I find it interesting that not a single BSN on this thread has said that ADN's are 'useless,' and 'incompetent,' but the ADN'S and LPN'S have felt free to say these things about the BSN's. Those of you who make these sweeping generalizations make me worry...do you also make sweeping generalizations about people of different races, gender, or religious affiliation based on ONE or a FEW experiences? I believe that is called PREJUDICE. Look it up in the dictionary...it means to PRE-JUDGE. That's exactly what you're doing by making statements like 'all BSN schools are inferior,' and 'all BSN nurses are unprepared to practice at the bedside.' It is attitudes and prejudices EXACTLY like the ADN's and LPN's on this thread have expressed that make for a hostile, non-supportive working environment. Just as you assert (correctly) that all ADN's and LPN's are not ignorant simply because they do not have a bachelor's degree, I must assert that all BSN's are not bumbling, unprepared, elitist snobs either. Good God, people...knock the chip off your shoulder and stop making such hostile, judgemental generalizations. You make yourselves look like a bunch of jerks.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Mar 16, 2001

Nursing has a unique opportunity presently to recreate itself. At this juncture of history, as we face a health-care crisis of unprecendented proportions, we must unite and become a cohesive force for change in out profession. We must decide who and what is a nurse. If we do not make the necessary changes for professional growth and autonomy, the government will step in and will decide for us. If this occurs, believe me, we will not like the results.

Unlike other professions, nursing has three entry levels. (The AMA and AHA love this--the old "divide and conquer" thing.) All others have one and the media understands their roles. Unfortunately, the public and the media cannot discriminate clearly what to expect from nurses: All have the same license to practice, even with variable preparation. Worse yet, the weakest prepared are the highest in number. It is not very difficult to understand why negative stereotypes about nurses exist. Nurses insist on being the poorest prepared of all the professions. At the same time, we stridently object to criticism.

Compare our apathy with that of other professions. After the end of World War II, leaders among school teachers raised the question of whether it was ethical to continue to teach students with only a 2-year normal school education. Teachers declared such limited preparation was unfair to children. It took 7 years to move all teacher preparation to the university level. Opposition, not surprisingly, came from the 80% of school teachers without college degrees, school superintendents who believed they could not recruit enough teachers with baccalaureate preparation to staff the schools, and 70% of the taxpayers who believed their taxes would be increased to pay better educated teachers. However, even with this amount of opposition, teachers soared to their goal.

Physical therapists are another group that has made progress with internal leadership. When hospital schools were the chief means of nurse preparation one had to be a nurse before one could begin physical therapy. After a workable mass of these nurse-physical therapists had accumulated, they broke away from their nurse "moorings" and moved to collegiate programs. Now a master's degree is the entry into practice requirement for all physical therapists.

The above examples are all evidence of proactive strategies to stay abreast of accumulated science and general knowledge. It appears we nurses prefer to bemoan our lack of recognition, respect, and autonomy, rather than take the needed steps for the public good.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Mar 16, 2001

Nursing has a unique opportunity presently to recreate itself. At this juncture of history, as we face a health-care crisis of unprecendented proportions, we must unite and become a cohesive force for change in out profession. We must decide who and what is a nurse. If we do not make the necessary changes for professional growth and autonomy, the government will step in and will decide for us. If this occurs, believe me, we will not like the results.

Unlike other professions, nursing has three entry levels. (The AMA and AHA love this--the old "divide and conquer" thing.) All others have one and the media understands their roles. Unfortunately, the public and the media cannot discriminate clearly what to expect from nurses: All have the same license to practice, even with variable preparation. Worse yet, the weakest prepared are the highest in number. It is not very difficult to understand why negative stereotypes about nurses exist. Nurses insist on being the poorest prepared of all the professions. At the same time, we stridently object to criticism.

Compare our apathy with that of other professions. After the end of World War II, leaders among school teachers raised the question of whether it was ethical to continue to teach students with only a 2-year normal school education. Teachers declared such limited preparation was unfair to children. It took 7 years to move all teacher preparation to the university level. Opposition, not surprisingly, came from the 80% of school teachers without college degrees, school superintendents who believed they could not recruit enough teachers with baccalaureate preparation to staff the schools, and 70% of the taxpayers who believed their taxes would be increased to pay better educated teachers. However, even with this amount of opposition, teachers soared to their goal.

Physical therapists are another group that has made progress with internal leadership. When hospital schools were the chief means of nurse preparation one had to be a nurse before one could begin physical therapy. After a workable mass of these nurse-physical therapists had accumulated, they broke away from their nurse "moorings" and moved to collegiate programs. Now a master's degree is the entry into practice requirement for all physical therapists.

The above examples are all evidence of proactive strategies to stay abreast of accumulated science and general knowledge. It appears we nurses prefer to bemoan our lack of recognition, respect, and autonomy, rather than take the needed steps for the public good.