BSN minimum requirement

Nurses General Nursing

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It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.

Originally posted by emtrn2k1:

I have worked in healthcare for 4 years while attending a AD program. Let me say--I don't know how it is where you are, but here our AD grads come out with a broader knowledge base than any of the 3-yes 3 BSN programs in our immediate area. Our program required us to do lots of critical thinking--much more than the BSN does. Not to mention you tend to get an older, often more mature, and wiser person in an AD program compared to some BSN programs. Don't get me wrong, I'm already working on BSN--and for those of you who went right to college knowing your hearts desire was to be an RN, and have 'what it takes' and can critically think - alot of people can't- I am not bashing you. I'm just saying our program required us to do teaching projects about legislation and political action, critical thinking exercises out the wazoo--and with the nursing shortage if the states required everyone to have a BSN before practicing we would have to shut down hospitals because the units couldn't function without nurses, and those wonderful souls who have been holding the profession together for the last twenty years while 'progression' has totally changed the role of the nurse- some for good some for bad--couldn't honestly be expected to function in that way. There is current legislation to promote LPN programs because our current shortage won't peak until 2003, and then there will be a short decline, but in 10-15 it will reach an all time high, because all those nurses with twenty some years service now are going to get tired of putting up with all the new grads who come in and think they know more than a diploma grad from 1974--and they are going to retire. I learned more working with a diploma RN, an LPN and an LPN-RN thru an AD program with a combined total of 57 years experience than any book could ever teach--AD or BSN!!! In fact most of the coordinators I have talked to say that the AD program was much harder than getting their BSN and even MSN because so much is independent!!

Just to say, lets promote the profession and education--but we would be stupid to cut our noses off to spite our faces.

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Originally posted by emtrn2k1:

I have worked in healthcare for 4 years while attending a AD program. Let me say--I don't know how it is where you are, but here our AD grads come out with a broader knowledge base than any of the 3-yes 3 BSN programs in our immediate area. Our program required us to do lots of critical thinking--much more than the BSN does. Not to mention you tend to get an older, often more mature, and wiser person in an AD program compared to some BSN programs. Don't get me wrong, I'm already working on BSN--and for those of you who went right to college knowing your hearts desire was to be an RN, and have 'what it takes' and can critically think - alot of people can't- I am not bashing you. I'm just saying our program required us to do teaching projects about legislation and political action, critical thinking exercises out the wazoo--and with the nursing shortage if the states required everyone to have a BSN before practicing we would have to shut down hospitals because the units couldn't function without nurses, and those wonderful souls who have been holding the profession together for the last twenty years while 'progression' has totally changed the role of the nurse- some for good some for bad--couldn't honestly be expected to function in that way. There is current legislation to promote LPN programs because our current shortage won't peak until 2003, and then there will be a short decline, but in 10-15 it will reach an all time high, because all those nurses with twenty some years service now are going to get tired of putting up with all the new grads who come in and think they know more than a diploma grad from 1974--and they are going to retire. I learned more working with a diploma RN, an LPN and an LPN-RN thru an AD program with a combined total of 57 years experience than any book could ever teach--AD or BSN!!! In fact most of the coordinators I have talked to say that the AD program was much harder than getting their BSN and even MSN because so much is independent!!

Just to say, lets promote the profession and education--but we would be stupid to cut our noses off to spite our faces.

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Hi. Much of the discussion could boil down to:

1. Are we made to feel inadequate with our various nursing backgrounds?

2. How many of us define our worth as people or nurses by our educational background and titles?

3. Should we be opposed to any attempts to change that which we consider near and dear to us?

4. Will condensing titles and educational levels increase nursing's overall strength?

5. Is it too late to try to restructure nursing education?

The BSN entry level proposal has been in debate for nearly 40 years.

Is the proposal an attempt by the AHA, AMA, and groups outside of nursing to maintain control? Or, was the initiative a sincere attempt by representatives from nursing to wrestle control of nursing from the AHA and AMA?

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Hi. Much of the discussion could boil down to:

1. Are we made to feel inadequate with our various nursing backgrounds?

2. How many of us define our worth as people or nurses by our educational background and titles?

3. Should we be opposed to any attempts to change that which we consider near and dear to us?

4. Will condensing titles and educational levels increase nursing's overall strength?

5. Is it too late to try to restructure nursing education?

The BSN entry level proposal has been in debate for nearly 40 years.

Is the proposal an attempt by the AHA, AMA, and groups outside of nursing to maintain control? Or, was the initiative a sincere attempt by representatives from nursing to wrestle control of nursing from the AHA and AMA?

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I keep throwing gas on this fire, but here we go anyway.

Fact: In the current climate of nursing there is little monetary incentive for getting a degree over a diploma. A degree is more expensive and starts you at the same level of pay a year later.

Fact: Employers can hire either a degree nurse or diploma/ADN nurse and have them do the same job.

Fact: In most professions more education = more pay. Why? The more education usually the higher the degree of responsibility the higher the starting salary.

So let's see what we have here. The lowest educational level for an RN is an ADN which is two years. Therefore employers can theoretically set their minimum salaries for someone who's done a two year program because that is the minimum you need to do that job. Since they can simply say "They're an RN, you're an RN, I'll pay you the same" there is little someone with a higher level of education can do to argue for a higher starting salary.

Now let's say you up the base educational requirement to a BScN. You now have a workforce that can say they need a degree to do their job. This is a much more unified argument to raise the minimum standard as a four year education is the MINIMUM educational standard. The employer can no longer say "well I'll pay you as I would anyone else who studied for two years to do their job". Because there's a HIGHER standard. Nursing is a profession that has a high degree of responsibility, accountability and autonomy. At the present time I don't think our wages reflect that. Raising the educational bar is one way to promote that change.

Again if this ever occured, the job doesn't change. Preparedness doesn't change necessarily. But the minimum standard does. We might be able to promote unity within the profession a bit more if we all started from the same background. Maybe not. Anyway, just my two cents.

Cheers,

J-P

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I keep throwing gas on this fire, but here we go anyway.

Fact: In the current climate of nursing there is little monetary incentive for getting a degree over a diploma. A degree is more expensive and starts you at the same level of pay a year later.

Fact: Employers can hire either a degree nurse or diploma/ADN nurse and have them do the same job.

Fact: In most professions more education = more pay. Why? The more education usually the higher the degree of responsibility the higher the starting salary.

So let's see what we have here. The lowest educational level for an RN is an ADN which is two years. Therefore employers can theoretically set their minimum salaries for someone who's done a two year program because that is the minimum you need to do that job. Since they can simply say "They're an RN, you're an RN, I'll pay you the same" there is little someone with a higher level of education can do to argue for a higher starting salary.

Now let's say you up the base educational requirement to a BScN. You now have a workforce that can say they need a degree to do their job. This is a much more unified argument to raise the minimum standard as a four year education is the MINIMUM educational standard. The employer can no longer say "well I'll pay you as I would anyone else who studied for two years to do their job". Because there's a HIGHER standard. Nursing is a profession that has a high degree of responsibility, accountability and autonomy. At the present time I don't think our wages reflect that. Raising the educational bar is one way to promote that change.

Again if this ever occured, the job doesn't change. Preparedness doesn't change necessarily. But the minimum standard does. We might be able to promote unity within the profession a bit more if we all started from the same background. Maybe not. Anyway, just my two cents.

Cheers,

J-P

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Originally posted by bigjay:

I keep throwing gas on this fire, but here we go anyway.

Fact: In the current climate of nursing there is little monetary incentive for getting a degree over a diploma. A degree is more expensive and starts you at the same level of pay a year later.

Fact: Employers can hire either a degree nurse or diploma/ADN nurse and have them do the same job.

Fact: In most professions more education = more pay. Why? The more education usually the higher the degree of responsibility the higher the starting salary.

So let's see what we have here. The lowest educational level for an RN is an ADN which is two years. Therefore employers can theoretically set their minimum salaries for someone who's done a two year program because that is the minimum you need to do that job. Since they can simply say "They're an RN, you're an RN, I'll pay you the same" there is little someone with a higher level of education can do to argue for a higher starting salary.

Now let's say you up the base educational requirement to a BScN. You now have a workforce that can say they need a degree to do their job. This is a much more unified argument to raise the minimum standard as a four year education is the MINIMUM educational standard. The employer can no longer say "well I'll pay you as I would anyone else who studied for two years to do their job". Because there's a HIGHER standard. Nursing is a profession that has a high degree of responsibility, accountability and autonomy. At the present time I don't think our wages reflect that. Raising the educational bar is one way to promote that change.

Again if this ever occured, the job doesn't change. Preparedness doesn't change necessarily. But the minimum standard does. We might be able to promote unity within the profession a bit more if we all started from the same background. Maybe not. Anyway, just my two cents.

Cheers,

J-P

Hi bigjay. You have been touting an interesting proposal here. I especially agree with your last paragraph. As you pointed out, at this time ALL nurses depending on their respective state practice acts can potentially have access to any level of responsibility they desire irregardless of their educational background. There are some state practice acts that allow LPNs, who I might add were responsible for teaching most of what I know about bedside care, to be DONs of LTC facilities. The state in which I work does not necessarily require for a DON or nursing VP of a hospital or other area which provides nursing services to have a BSN or MSN.

In other words, there is no distinction for the level of responsibility with the level of nursing education except in nursing education itself in which there is a clear delineation of roles and responsibilities with educational backgrounds. I will point out that there are nurses, LPNs, diplomas, and ADNs, who have college and university degrees in other areas that feel that they are just as qualified as someone who has all her/his degrees in nursing.

In this particular instance of level of accountability and responsibility for the level of education, I also feel the best solution is to one-size it. I don't think a two or three-tiered nursing educational system works to OUR advantage because we infight alot over our nursing education and we receive a great deal of help with this infighting from external entities such as the AMA and AHA.

However, I will write that I will be surprised that much if anything will be done to standardize nursing education because of the bedside worker shortage. I'm on the verge of believing that nursing has missed its opportunity to strengthen itself. Consumer demand and the quest for continued excess profits reign supreme.

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Originally posted by bigjay:

I keep throwing gas on this fire, but here we go anyway.

Fact: In the current climate of nursing there is little monetary incentive for getting a degree over a diploma. A degree is more expensive and starts you at the same level of pay a year later.

Fact: Employers can hire either a degree nurse or diploma/ADN nurse and have them do the same job.

Fact: In most professions more education = more pay. Why? The more education usually the higher the degree of responsibility the higher the starting salary.

So let's see what we have here. The lowest educational level for an RN is an ADN which is two years. Therefore employers can theoretically set their minimum salaries for someone who's done a two year program because that is the minimum you need to do that job. Since they can simply say "They're an RN, you're an RN, I'll pay you the same" there is little someone with a higher level of education can do to argue for a higher starting salary.

Now let's say you up the base educational requirement to a BScN. You now have a workforce that can say they need a degree to do their job. This is a much more unified argument to raise the minimum standard as a four year education is the MINIMUM educational standard. The employer can no longer say "well I'll pay you as I would anyone else who studied for two years to do their job". Because there's a HIGHER standard. Nursing is a profession that has a high degree of responsibility, accountability and autonomy. At the present time I don't think our wages reflect that. Raising the educational bar is one way to promote that change.

Again if this ever occured, the job doesn't change. Preparedness doesn't change necessarily. But the minimum standard does. We might be able to promote unity within the profession a bit more if we all started from the same background. Maybe not. Anyway, just my two cents.

Cheers,

J-P

Hi bigjay. You have been touting an interesting proposal here. I especially agree with your last paragraph. As you pointed out, at this time ALL nurses depending on their respective state practice acts can potentially have access to any level of responsibility they desire irregardless of their educational background. There are some state practice acts that allow LPNs, who I might add were responsible for teaching most of what I know about bedside care, to be DONs of LTC facilities. The state in which I work does not necessarily require for a DON or nursing VP of a hospital or other area which provides nursing services to have a BSN or MSN.

In other words, there is no distinction for the level of responsibility with the level of nursing education except in nursing education itself in which there is a clear delineation of roles and responsibilities with educational backgrounds. I will point out that there are nurses, LPNs, diplomas, and ADNs, who have college and university degrees in other areas that feel that they are just as qualified as someone who has all her/his degrees in nursing.

In this particular instance of level of accountability and responsibility for the level of education, I also feel the best solution is to one-size it. I don't think a two or three-tiered nursing educational system works to OUR advantage because we infight alot over our nursing education and we receive a great deal of help with this infighting from external entities such as the AMA and AHA.

However, I will write that I will be surprised that much if anything will be done to standardize nursing education because of the bedside worker shortage. I'm on the verge of believing that nursing has missed its opportunity to strengthen itself. Consumer demand and the quest for continued excess profits reign supreme.

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Every experience I have had with a new grad BSN nurse has been negative. They just don't recieve the clinical instruction needed to be competent. As a Hospital Diploma graduate (3yr program) I recieved the clinical and theory background that allowed me to enter the critical care environment with little problem. The BSN has been pushed by big universities soley as a means to produce revenue. And since they have control over the advanced practice areas, they are able to require the BSN to attain advanced privilages. This is not in the best interest of quality patient care. It is just politics and big buisness. An LPN is better prepared to care for patients clinically than a BSN grad. College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through.

If you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester. I could go on and on.

I am glad that those of you who went the BSN route feel proud, you should, but stop demeaning those of us who have the superior clinical training because you have 12 more hours of humanities, and 24 hours more of electives in subjects that you probably can't recall. Putting RN,BSN after your name makes you look arrogant. If you just put BSN, we know that you have your RN too.

SO NAH!

:-P

Originally posted by Lburns:

It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

Every experience I have had with a new grad BSN nurse has been negative. They just don't recieve the clinical instruction needed to be competent. As a Hospital Diploma graduate (3yr program) I recieved the clinical and theory background that allowed me to enter the critical care environment with little problem. The BSN has been pushed by big universities soley as a means to produce revenue. And since they have control over the advanced practice areas, they are able to require the BSN to attain advanced privilages. This is not in the best interest of quality patient care. It is just politics and big buisness. An LPN is better prepared to care for patients clinically than a BSN grad. College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through.

If you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester. I could go on and on.

I am glad that those of you who went the BSN route feel proud, you should, but stop demeaning those of us who have the superior clinical training because you have 12 more hours of humanities, and 24 hours more of electives in subjects that you probably can't recall. Putting RN,BSN after your name makes you look arrogant. If you just put BSN, we know that you have your RN too.

SO NAH!

:-P

Originally posted by Lburns:

It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.

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Buck227,

I'm sorry but your post made my jaw hit the floor. I cannot believe the negative biases you hold toward BSN nurses. This is ridiculous. You stated that "if you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester." I can assure you that this is NOT the case at my school nor is it the case at any BSN program to which I am familiar.

You also assert that "College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through." I would be very interested in seeing the research that supports this very broad statement. I won't hold my breath though, as I am quite sure that it does not exist.

Unlike you I will not make any sweeping generalizations regarding diploma prepared nurses (first of all because I have nothing but the upmost respect for diploma prepared nurses, and secondly because you are NOT every diploma prepared nurse...get the picture??) I will say that in my opinion, with regard to BSN nurses and their competencies as well as their programs, you are either grossly misinformed or sadly disillusioned.

Shannon

------------------

"The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it."-Johan Ruskin

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Buck227,

I'm sorry but your post made my jaw hit the floor. I cannot believe the negative biases you hold toward BSN nurses. This is ridiculous. You stated that "if you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester." I can assure you that this is NOT the case at my school nor is it the case at any BSN program to which I am familiar.

You also assert that "College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through." I would be very interested in seeing the research that supports this very broad statement. I won't hold my breath though, as I am quite sure that it does not exist.

Unlike you I will not make any sweeping generalizations regarding diploma prepared nurses (first of all because I have nothing but the upmost respect for diploma prepared nurses, and secondly because you are NOT every diploma prepared nurse...get the picture??) I will say that in my opinion, with regard to BSN nurses and their competencies as well as their programs, you are either grossly misinformed or sadly disillusioned.

Shannon

------------------

"The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it."-Johan Ruskin

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