BSN minimum requirement

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by Brownms46:

First of all,...let me say that I didn't feel attacked. What is being talked about here isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. I do however find it difficult to listen to those who just came to the dance, trying to tell everyone else how the music should be played, when everyone was dancing to it just fine! Especially those who try to push this altruistic motivation bull, that they just want to elevate nursing to a more professional level, down my throat. Or who espouse the notion, that the nursing shortage won't always be with us! Yes it will, and it will become even more critical. The shortage that is here now, is worse than the shortages that existed over 20yrs ago.

However...I do agree with you, that nurses are called, and no amount of education can be substitued for those who come into this field, and dedicate their lives to caring for others at the BEDSIDE, and are not looking to higher education as a way to help them escape.."when they tire of it"

Brownie

As a response to the nursing shortage, check with the hospitals, sit on the board, and take a look around. Those tasks we are doing, as Sheripa mentioned before, are tasks that are being taught to others. The RN has been shown to do assessments and intervene effectively, but the LVN and the CNA will be doing the tasks. AS nurses become fewer due to hard work and low pay, the number of laws passed in regards to ancillary care will continue. That is what I originally meant in regards to the nursing shortage, not necessarilly more RNs, but more jobs delegated out there. RNs have very little political power both in hospitals and in WAshington, yet we are a HUGE group of people. Only until we realize our worth and push forward for unity (both in education and pay) we will not be able to use that power. Other countries have seen the light and their nurses are more educated than our nurses putting their health care system ahead of ours. The US was number one in spending but only 33 in providing of care, that is terrible. With nurses getting a 4 year degree and coming to the table armed with knowledge, we will be able to demand better wages, better benefits, better care for the patient and we WILL be able to change things. However, we must move forward and know that things aren't as they were 20 years ago. Technology forces us to become better educated and the health care crisis forces us to get involved. Education is not for those who tire of the bedside, it is for those who wish to continue to provide care on every level.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by Brownms46:

First of all,...let me say that I didn't feel attacked. What is being talked about here isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. I do however find it difficult to listen to those who just came to the dance, trying to tell everyone else how the music should be played, when everyone was dancing to it just fine! Especially those who try to push this altruistic motivation bull, that they just want to elevate nursing to a more professional level, down my throat. Or who espouse the notion, that the nursing shortage won't always be with us! Yes it will, and it will become even more critical. The shortage that is here now, is worse than the shortages that existed over 20yrs ago.

However...I do agree with you, that nurses are called, and no amount of education can be substitued for those who come into this field, and dedicate their lives to caring for others at the BEDSIDE, and are not looking to higher education as a way to help them escape.."when they tire of it"

Brownie

As a response to the nursing shortage, check with the hospitals, sit on the board, and take a look around. Those tasks we are doing, as Sheripa mentioned before, are tasks that are being taught to others. The RN has been shown to do assessments and intervene effectively, but the LVN and the CNA will be doing the tasks. AS nurses become fewer due to hard work and low pay, the number of laws passed in regards to ancillary care will continue. That is what I originally meant in regards to the nursing shortage, not necessarilly more RNs, but more jobs delegated out there. RNs have very little political power both in hospitals and in WAshington, yet we are a HUGE group of people. Only until we realize our worth and push forward for unity (both in education and pay) we will not be able to use that power. Other countries have seen the light and their nurses are more educated than our nurses putting their health care system ahead of ours. The US was number one in spending but only 33 in providing of care, that is terrible. With nurses getting a 4 year degree and coming to the table armed with knowledge, we will be able to demand better wages, better benefits, better care for the patient and we WILL be able to change things. However, we must move forward and know that things aren't as they were 20 years ago. Technology forces us to become better educated and the health care crisis forces us to get involved. Education is not for those who tire of the bedside, it is for those who wish to continue to provide care on every level.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by Lisa - RN:
With regards to the "Davis & Elkins" college, Weber State University in Ogden, Utah is very similar, i.e., they do not offer a straight 4-year BSN. Instead, applicants must finish a certain amount of pre-req's; show proof of completion of a Certified Nursing Assistant course and various community service; high SAT or ACT scores; application to ADN program during Winter semester - start the following Fall; two years later receive AS Degree (ADN); pass boards. A new application is generated for BSN admission with proof of Utah licensure. Then, and only then, can one start WSU's BSN program. Other BSN program requirements (besides licensure as a Registered Nurse) are high GPA, professional membership, letters of recommendation, etc.

This very subject (BSN entry level) was discussed at length throughout my ADN program. The main complaint from most students: Why pay more tuition/sacrifice more time to obtain a BSN when [utah] employers do not monetarily compensate for this additional degree? This was how the majority felt, evidenced by only a handful of my fellow classmates going on to WSU's BSN program.

Maybe this is a subject for another post, but I am curious if other regions/states offer additional compensation for an RN with a BSN.

My state doesn't offer compensation per se, but it opens the doors to jobs otherwise unavailable, be it at the bedside or in managment/ research. I think this would be a great idea to integrate the ADN/BSN programs as we move forward into the 21st century.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by Lisa - RN:
With regards to the "Davis & Elkins" college, Weber State University in Ogden, Utah is very similar, i.e., they do not offer a straight 4-year BSN. Instead, applicants must finish a certain amount of pre-req's; show proof of completion of a Certified Nursing Assistant course and various community service; high SAT or ACT scores; application to ADN program during Winter semester - start the following Fall; two years later receive AS Degree (ADN); pass boards. A new application is generated for BSN admission with proof of Utah licensure. Then, and only then, can one start WSU's BSN program. Other BSN program requirements (besides licensure as a Registered Nurse) are high GPA, professional membership, letters of recommendation, etc.

This very subject (BSN entry level) was discussed at length throughout my ADN program. The main complaint from most students: Why pay more tuition/sacrifice more time to obtain a BSN when [utah] employers do not monetarily compensate for this additional degree? This was how the majority felt, evidenced by only a handful of my fellow classmates going on to WSU's BSN program.

Maybe this is a subject for another post, but I am curious if other regions/states offer additional compensation for an RN with a BSN.

My state doesn't offer compensation per se, but it opens the doors to jobs otherwise unavailable, be it at the bedside or in managment/ research. I think this would be a great idea to integrate the ADN/BSN programs as we move forward into the 21st century.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by shodobe:
After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

Education is worth far more than any money it generates. I went for my BSN knowing it wasn't going to generate more income but I have learned so much more than I thought possible. I used to believe many of the same things other here did, that an ADN was all that was necessary. However, I have since changed my mind and continue forward with changing nursing for the positive. I don't believe anyone needs to feel left behind or belittled, but the time is now for us to take control of our profession. To start with we need to develop a minimum standard degree and that should be a 4yr degree. Once that is done it is time to move forward and change the roots of nursing from other professions making up our standards to us making up our standards. Lets get behind the nursing force and become a force that leads to positive change.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by shodobe:
After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

Education is worth far more than any money it generates. I went for my BSN knowing it wasn't going to generate more income but I have learned so much more than I thought possible. I used to believe many of the same things other here did, that an ADN was all that was necessary. However, I have since changed my mind and continue forward with changing nursing for the positive. I don't believe anyone needs to feel left behind or belittled, but the time is now for us to take control of our profession. To start with we need to develop a minimum standard degree and that should be a 4yr degree. Once that is done it is time to move forward and change the roots of nursing from other professions making up our standards to us making up our standards. Lets get behind the nursing force and become a force that leads to positive change.

sweetbaboo · Mar 13, 2001

As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?

sweetbaboo · Mar 13, 2001

As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?

Brownms46 · Mar 14, 2001

Originally posted by sweetbaboo:
As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?

And then some! Great post!

Brownms46 · Mar 14, 2001

Originally posted by sweetbaboo:
As a prospective nurse I'm getting the willies. All this fighting! It isn't bad enough that there are doctors out there that are willing to tell you what you lack (i.e. med degree) you all are throwing insults at each other. I have been in the medical field as an RT (wow talk about no respect) We are to follow orders and dare not deduce what a patient may or may not have wrong---we look at this stuff all day long, you can't tell me we wouldn't know something abnornal before a fresh med school graduate would--there is something to be said for experience. I naively thought getting MY bachelor's degree would open doors and create career paths that were NOT available to me with just my little ol' diploma---WRONGO REINDEER! In Radiology at least, experience is 90% of promotion consideration. Granted, faced with a non-degree vs a degreed person for Chief, one might pick the degree, but if it was also a factor of time put in--guess what, I sure hope they would pick the vetern and encourage further education---I know this was a long round about, but what I was trying to say, is that I'm getting a picture that if I have a BSN behind my RN--being a fresh degree--I am no better, nor any worse than a recently graduated RN from an acredited nursing program--I would be better rounded (oooh I could quote Shakespear to the patient, or I would be multiculturally aware of my patient) and apparently a lot less rich due to the hefty tag behind my RN---Am I understanding the crux of this discussion correctly?

And then some! Great post!

shodobe · Mar 14, 2001

I do agree with llburns that education is worth the time and trouble.What ever makes you feel good, go for it.It seems over the years I have been in nursing the only community of nurses who think a BSN should be the minimum are the nurses who have their BSNs already.In all aspects of society you will always find the ones who do not have it are the ones who will fight against it. In other words if the Gorilla was the prerequisite for being allowed into the primate world don't you think all the other chimps would be against it? Also if having a higher degree was the only way to be a computer programmer then there would be a lot of geeks out of work.I know for a fact if you know your stuff in computers then it doesn't matter if you have a degree from MIT. The same thing applies to nursing, I want to know who is going to make the decision on this matter. Is it going to be a few people on the local, state or federal level? No matter who does this no one is going to be happy except the upper echelon. I know this won't be decided in my professional career but everyone should just sit back and relax because all it does is draw a line between people and NO ONE WINS!I have been at this for 24 years and feel I am no better than the next nurse, just maybe a little more experienced. This I can pass on and I hope they will become just a little bit better for it. Mike

shodobe · Mar 14, 2001

I do agree with llburns that education is worth the time and trouble.What ever makes you feel good, go for it.It seems over the years I have been in nursing the only community of nurses who think a BSN should be the minimum are the nurses who have their BSNs already.In all aspects of society you will always find the ones who do not have it are the ones who will fight against it. In other words if the Gorilla was the prerequisite for being allowed into the primate world don't you think all the other chimps would be against it? Also if having a higher degree was the only way to be a computer programmer then there would be a lot of geeks out of work.I know for a fact if you know your stuff in computers then it doesn't matter if you have a degree from MIT. The same thing applies to nursing, I want to know who is going to make the decision on this matter. Is it going to be a few people on the local, state or federal level? No matter who does this no one is going to be happy except the upper echelon. I know this won't be decided in my professional career but everyone should just sit back and relax because all it does is draw a line between people and NO ONE WINS!I have been at this for 24 years and feel I am no better than the next nurse, just maybe a little more experienced. This I can pass on and I hope they will become just a little bit better for it. Mike