BSN minimum requirement

Nurses General Nursing

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It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.

If you fail your boards, you probably were a BSN student. So what you are saying is that you simply put RN before BSN to signify that you passed your boards? Why would you be practicing as a nurse if you didn't pass your boards?

Originally posted by Level2Trauma:

You are very mistaken! Just because someone has a BSN doesn't mean they are a RN. You have to pass the state board exam before you can place RN ehind your name. However, if you fail the state board you still can place BSN behind your name because you have a bachelors' degree in nursing. So, RN BSN means simply that you are a registered nurse with a bachelors' degree in nursing. I thought someone as smart as you would know that. GUESS I WAS WRONG!!!

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If you fail your boards, you probably were a BSN student. So what you are saying is that you simply put RN before BSN to signify that you passed your boards? Why would you be practicing as a nurse if you didn't pass your boards?

Originally posted by Level2Trauma:

You are very mistaken! Just because someone has a BSN doesn't mean they are a RN. You have to pass the state board exam before you can place RN ehind your name. However, if you fail the state board you still can place BSN behind your name because you have a bachelors' degree in nursing. So, RN BSN means simply that you are a registered nurse with a bachelors' degree in nursing. I thought someone as smart as you would know that. GUESS I WAS WRONG!!!

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I went into Nursing because I discovered that I truly loved taking care of people. I only have my ADN and that's enough for me. I don't think that BSN people are any better than me. I know what kind of person I am so I don't feel threatened. I think it is important for all of us to remember that we are NURSES! If you want to further your education, that is wonderful. But, I don't think it is fair to expect everyone else to want that. I do want to further my education but it won't be for a BSN if I do. I love what I do. Yes, I don't particularly like the cleaning up of poop, vomit and other bodily discharges but I knew going into this field that I would have to. We need to unite as professionals despite our differences in education.

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I went into Nursing because I discovered that I truly loved taking care of people. I only have my ADN and that's enough for me. I don't think that BSN people are any better than me. I know what kind of person I am so I don't feel threatened. I think it is important for all of us to remember that we are NURSES! If you want to further your education, that is wonderful. But, I don't think it is fair to expect everyone else to want that. I do want to further my education but it won't be for a BSN if I do. I love what I do. Yes, I don't particularly like the cleaning up of poop, vomit and other bodily discharges but I knew going into this field that I would have to. We need to unite as professionals despite our differences in education.

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Shannon,

Your jaw should hit the floor. I have been practicing for 5 years and I have repeatedly had to assist BSN grads with basic nursing tasks. I am not writing this for sake of attack. I am stateing a fact from my clinical experience. There is a real problem with the training given to students in the BSN programs. It is unfair to the students and it is unfair to patients. And when someone comes out with the statement that all nurses should be required to go through a program which I have found through experience to have produced sub-standard nurses, then I find it my duty to speak up. If you think that A BSN college program better prepares you to care for patients than a in-hospital program, then you are fooling yourself.

Do you realize that an LPN program (1 year program) provides more clinical hours than a BSN or ADN program. It is highway robbery in the educational sense propagated by the politically powerful universities.

I am fine with the fact that there are BSN programs, I am not fine with the fact that BSN graduates feel like they are better prepared. It just isn't so.

I have a 4 year degree in another feild. I then recieved my RN by going through a diploma program (3 years). I have 7 years of school but I am treated different in the eyes of many in the profession because I don't have a BSN.

Can we still be freinds?

:-)

Originally posted by ShannonB25:

Buck227,

I'm sorry but your post made my jaw hit the floor. I cannot believe the negative biases you hold toward BSN nurses. This is ridiculous. You stated that "if you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester." I can assure you that this is NOT the case at my school nor is it the case at any BSN program to which I am familiar.

You also assert that "College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through." I would be very interested in seeing the research that supports this very broad statement. I won't hold my breath though, as I am quite sure that it does not exist.

Unlike you I will not make any sweeping generalizations regarding diploma prepared nurses (first of all because I have nothing but the upmost respect for diploma prepared nurses, and secondly because you are NOT every diploma prepared nurse...get the picture??) I will say that in my opinion, with regard to BSN nurses and their competencies as well as their programs, you are either grossly misinformed or sadly disillusioned.

Shannon

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Shannon,

Your jaw should hit the floor. I have been practicing for 5 years and I have repeatedly had to assist BSN grads with basic nursing tasks. I am not writing this for sake of attack. I am stateing a fact from my clinical experience. There is a real problem with the training given to students in the BSN programs. It is unfair to the students and it is unfair to patients. And when someone comes out with the statement that all nurses should be required to go through a program which I have found through experience to have produced sub-standard nurses, then I find it my duty to speak up. If you think that A BSN college program better prepares you to care for patients than a in-hospital program, then you are fooling yourself.

Do you realize that an LPN program (1 year program) provides more clinical hours than a BSN or ADN program. It is highway robbery in the educational sense propagated by the politically powerful universities.

I am fine with the fact that there are BSN programs, I am not fine with the fact that BSN graduates feel like they are better prepared. It just isn't so.

I have a 4 year degree in another feild. I then recieved my RN by going through a diploma program (3 years). I have 7 years of school but I am treated different in the eyes of many in the profession because I don't have a BSN.

Can we still be freinds?

:-)

Originally posted by ShannonB25:

Buck227,

I'm sorry but your post made my jaw hit the floor. I cannot believe the negative biases you hold toward BSN nurses. This is ridiculous. You stated that "if you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester." I can assure you that this is NOT the case at my school nor is it the case at any BSN program to which I am familiar.

You also assert that "College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through." I would be very interested in seeing the research that supports this very broad statement. I won't hold my breath though, as I am quite sure that it does not exist.

Unlike you I will not make any sweeping generalizations regarding diploma prepared nurses (first of all because I have nothing but the upmost respect for diploma prepared nurses, and secondly because you are NOT every diploma prepared nurse...get the picture??) I will say that in my opinion, with regard to BSN nurses and their competencies as well as their programs, you are either grossly misinformed or sadly disillusioned.

Shannon

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I appreciate your reply. Again, I don't know if it is merely the schools in your area or what, but my BSN program actually provides MORE clinical hours than most of the ADN and certainly more than the LPN programs in my state. I realize that there are differences in the amount of clinical time that individuals receive, and that unfortunately that is not always an ideal amount of time. I am simply saying that for many of us that is not the case. While you are certainly entitled to base your opinion on your experiences, you should understand that I can only do the same based on my own. I assure you that I do not look down upon any nurse, regardless of education. As a matter of fact, some of the best nurses that I have had the priveledge of working with during clinicals have been LPN's! As for the depth of their training, I am not up for disputing the variances in programs between an ADN or BSN vs an LPN. The programs are different with different areas of emphasis, period. To ascertain that the LPN program is somehow superior to that of a BSN is, in my opinion, incorrect. Neither is superior, they are merely different.

For the record, yes we can be friends smile.gif I appreciate empassioned individuals, I just wish that you would please consider that we are not ALL like the new grads that you have described. Perhaps you could suggest a change in your local program if this indeed the case in your area? Have a good night.

Respectfully,

Shannon

------------------

"The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it."-Johan Ruskin

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I appreciate your reply. Again, I don't know if it is merely the schools in your area or what, but my BSN program actually provides MORE clinical hours than most of the ADN and certainly more than the LPN programs in my state. I realize that there are differences in the amount of clinical time that individuals receive, and that unfortunately that is not always an ideal amount of time. I am simply saying that for many of us that is not the case. While you are certainly entitled to base your opinion on your experiences, you should understand that I can only do the same based on my own. I assure you that I do not look down upon any nurse, regardless of education. As a matter of fact, some of the best nurses that I have had the priveledge of working with during clinicals have been LPN's! As for the depth of their training, I am not up for disputing the variances in programs between an ADN or BSN vs an LPN. The programs are different with different areas of emphasis, period. To ascertain that the LPN program is somehow superior to that of a BSN is, in my opinion, incorrect. Neither is superior, they are merely different.

For the record, yes we can be friends smile.gif I appreciate empassioned individuals, I just wish that you would please consider that we are not ALL like the new grads that you have described. Perhaps you could suggest a change in your local program if this indeed the case in your area? Have a good night.

Respectfully,

Shannon

------------------

"The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it."-Johan Ruskin

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Originally posted by buck227:

Every experience I have had with a new grad BSN nurse has been negative.

Me: EVERY one? I find that a bit hard to believe.

buck: They just don't recieve the clinical instruction needed to be competent. As a Hospital Diploma graduate (3yr program) I recieved the clinical and theory background that allowed me to enter the critical care environment with little problem. The BSN has been pushed by big universities soley as a means to produce revenue. And since they have control over the advanced practice areas, they are able to require the BSN to attain advanced privilages. This is not in the best interest of quality patient care. It is just politics and big buisness.

Me: Did they assassainate JFK too? smile.gif How exactly do big universities control advanced practice areas and promote BScNs? Being a BScN myself I'd like to know how to get in on that...

buck: An LPN is better prepared to care for patients clinically than a BSN grad. College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through.

Me: You're gonna have to supply some facts on that. Unless you've been through or done an in-depth study on all three programs that's a bit of a biased generalization...

buck: If you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester. I could go on and on.

Me: Please do. And include some proof.

buck: I am glad that those of you who went the BSN route feel proud, you should, but stop demeaning those of us who have the superior clinical training because you have 12 more hours of humanities, and 24 hours more of electives in subjects that you probably can't recall.

Me: Whose demeaning those of you with "superior clinical training"? The incompetent BScN grads you seem to run into all the time?

buck: Putting RN,BSN after your name makes you look arrogant. If you just put BSN, we know that you have your RN too.

Me: I earned those letters, thank you. I'll use them if I want. If it makes me look arrogant, oh well.

buck: SO NAH!

:-P

Me: I'm sorry to stoop to sarcasm but please... this is the attitude that makes our profession unable to do anything. I see it time and time again whenever a discussion about education comes up.

The argument of "more clinical is better" is a little off the mark in my opinion. I have forty some odd years of working ahead of me. I only had four years of school. To me education is more about teaching you how to think than how to do. A trained monkey could pass out meds. A nurse (BScN/ADN/LPN) knows to look at what they are giving, what the effects are, etc. School teaches you the why and how behind the task.

If I have offended by my comments, that is unfortunate. I just tire of name-calling and generalizations and felt the need to directly address them. Plus it's my fourth night shift in a row and I'm in a mood....

Cheers,

J-P

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Originally posted by buck227:

Every experience I have had with a new grad BSN nurse has been negative.

Me: EVERY one? I find that a bit hard to believe.

buck: They just don't recieve the clinical instruction needed to be competent. As a Hospital Diploma graduate (3yr program) I recieved the clinical and theory background that allowed me to enter the critical care environment with little problem. The BSN has been pushed by big universities soley as a means to produce revenue. And since they have control over the advanced practice areas, they are able to require the BSN to attain advanced privilages. This is not in the best interest of quality patient care. It is just politics and big buisness.

Me: Did they assassainate JFK too? smile.gif How exactly do big universities control advanced practice areas and promote BScNs? Being a BScN myself I'd like to know how to get in on that...

buck: An LPN is better prepared to care for patients clinically than a BSN grad. College programs are easier than diploma programs, and allow those who would normally fail a hospital program to slip through.

Me: You're gonna have to supply some facts on that. Unless you've been through or done an in-depth study on all three programs that's a bit of a biased generalization...

buck: If you fail a course in a diploma program, you are out for a straight year. You are allowed to retake the course one more time the next year and if you fail again, you are out. In a BSN program, you simply just take the course again the next semester. I could go on and on.

Me: Please do. And include some proof.

buck: I am glad that those of you who went the BSN route feel proud, you should, but stop demeaning those of us who have the superior clinical training because you have 12 more hours of humanities, and 24 hours more of electives in subjects that you probably can't recall.

Me: Whose demeaning those of you with "superior clinical training"? The incompetent BScN grads you seem to run into all the time?

buck: Putting RN,BSN after your name makes you look arrogant. If you just put BSN, we know that you have your RN too.

Me: I earned those letters, thank you. I'll use them if I want. If it makes me look arrogant, oh well.

buck: SO NAH!

:-P

Me: I'm sorry to stoop to sarcasm but please... this is the attitude that makes our profession unable to do anything. I see it time and time again whenever a discussion about education comes up.

The argument of "more clinical is better" is a little off the mark in my opinion. I have forty some odd years of working ahead of me. I only had four years of school. To me education is more about teaching you how to think than how to do. A trained monkey could pass out meds. A nurse (BScN/ADN/LPN) knows to look at what they are giving, what the effects are, etc. School teaches you the why and how behind the task.

If I have offended by my comments, that is unfortunate. I just tire of name-calling and generalizations and felt the need to directly address them. Plus it's my fourth night shift in a row and I'm in a mood....

Cheers,

J-P

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Sorry to go on again but the wheels are still turning...

Thinking about some of the comments that have flown around this discussion about needing to help the "unprepared" new grads, be they BScN, ADN, LPN, M+M...

What's wrong with that?

I would hope that when I start on a floor people will help me. I help my less experienced colleagues when they have questions or need a hand with something. In turn my more experienced colleagues help me with clinical issues I haven't had a lot of experience with. And in turn, I help my experienced colleagues with things they have less experience with (computers is a big one...).

Shouldn't we be helping each other and appreciating our differences? Rather than bickering about our different educational backgrounds shouldn't we use each others strengths?

Can't we all just get along!.... smile.gif

Alright, enough babbling. Man I need sleep...

Cheers,

J-P

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Sorry to go on again but the wheels are still turning...

Thinking about some of the comments that have flown around this discussion about needing to help the "unprepared" new grads, be they BScN, ADN, LPN, M+M...

What's wrong with that?

I would hope that when I start on a floor people will help me. I help my less experienced colleagues when they have questions or need a hand with something. In turn my more experienced colleagues help me with clinical issues I haven't had a lot of experience with. And in turn, I help my experienced colleagues with things they have less experience with (computers is a big one...).

Shouldn't we be helping each other and appreciating our differences? Rather than bickering about our different educational backgrounds shouldn't we use each others strengths?

Can't we all just get along!.... smile.gif

Alright, enough babbling. Man I need sleep...

Cheers,

J-P

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