BSN minimum requirement

JennieBSN · Mar 11, 2001

CarolK---Just as YOU might resent blanket statements about 2 year RNs being 'uneducated,' I resent your IGNORANT blanket statements about BSNs:

BSN's don't know what a real nurse does nor do they want to know. Willing to dish out orders but not know how to do the task yourselves.

GET A GRIP. As a BSN prepared nurse, I am DAMN GOOD at my job, and am very much a 'REAL NURSE.' Jesus. Nice fanning the flames of class warfare....I guess you didn't have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say.

JennieBSN · Mar 11, 2001

CarolK---Just as YOU might resent blanket statements about 2 year RNs being 'uneducated,' I resent your IGNORANT blanket statements about BSNs:

BSN's don't know what a real nurse does nor do they want to know. Willing to dish out orders but not know how to do the task yourselves.

GET A GRIP. As a BSN prepared nurse, I am DAMN GOOD at my job, and am very much a 'REAL NURSE.' Jesus. Nice fanning the flames of class warfare....I guess you didn't have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say.

shodobe · Mar 12, 2001

After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

shodobe · Mar 12, 2001

After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

Charles S. Smith, RN, MS · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by shodobe:
After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

Mike..there is some truth to what you say. Hospitals don't generally recognize higher levels of education for clinical practice. Given the nature of what we do and the compression of nurses wages, nurses are looking for more pay incentives. But your statement about hospitals needing to recognize the extra effort of getting a BSN FIRST may be putting the cart before the horse. My perspective is that NURSES ought to value the extra effort FIRST and demonstrate a global attitude of what is acceptable and financially worthy. Nurses must set the precedent and then command the financial rewards they deserve. As I have said before, we must value education for what it does for our lives in the long run, not for a specific job outcome. When we begin valuing education for the right reasons, reshaping our roles based on the education, and creating our nursing futures together, then and only then will be reap the rewards of our efforts. We can not depend on anyone else to do this for us. We have a tremendous opportunity right now to completely alter the course of nursing...are we driving or are we riding???

best regards

chas

Charles S. Smith, RN, MS · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by shodobe:
After viewing a subject that just will not die a nice natural death I can only come to the one conclusion, most BSN nurses are upset they are not making more money for the education they paid for.Let's face it until hospitals recognize higher education and pay for it most nurses will not take the time to go back to school. Yes you can make more if you go into management but what about the ones who stay behind to take care of patients? If I knew I would make considerably more by getting my BSN and still could stay at the bedside I would get my BSN.The bottom line for most nurses is the almighty dollar.Why should anyone go back to school and accumulate a huge debt just to make as much as the ADN who would spend about a third.I can see the hairs of most nurses now standing up because of what I have said but I have talked to quite a number of nurses over a period of time and they have all said this.There are some hospitals that pay for degrees and certs but this usually amounts to 1%!Get hospitals to recognize this added effort by paying more and you will see an increase in nurses going back to school.There is nothing wrong with admitting that money is a motivator for staying in nursing because over the next few years I think you will see a significant increase in salaries for nurses. Mike

BSN for the entry level for "Professional" nursing? Give me a BREAK!

Mike..there is some truth to what you say. Hospitals don't generally recognize higher levels of education for clinical practice. Given the nature of what we do and the compression of nurses wages, nurses are looking for more pay incentives. But your statement about hospitals needing to recognize the extra effort of getting a BSN FIRST may be putting the cart before the horse. My perspective is that NURSES ought to value the extra effort FIRST and demonstrate a global attitude of what is acceptable and financially worthy. Nurses must set the precedent and then command the financial rewards they deserve. As I have said before, we must value education for what it does for our lives in the long run, not for a specific job outcome. When we begin valuing education for the right reasons, reshaping our roles based on the education, and creating our nursing futures together, then and only then will be reap the rewards of our efforts. We can not depend on anyone else to do this for us. We have a tremendous opportunity right now to completely alter the course of nursing...are we driving or are we riding???

best regards

chas

mattbsn · Mar 12, 2001

If we truly want to be considered a profession we do need to move to having a BSN as a basis for entry into nursing. However, I do agree that this will also impact the nursing shortage in the SHORT term. I realize that ADN prepared nurses usually have more clinical experience at graduation than BSN prepared nurses because they do not have to take additional courses to become more rounded. Many hospitals are starting internship programs and in the past we did have GN positions, maybe we should move back to that type of program for the 1st 6 months post graduation. If you don't believe that being viewed as a profession doesn't have its advantages look at what has happened in the short time since pharmacists have switched to requiring a PHARMD! We are still considered as a expenditure source and not as an asset. If you want to solve the nursing shortage we should bill nursing care independently for hours of service. If nursing is viewed as a Profit source and as a Profession the nursing shortage will resolve itself over time, even though the numbers of patients continue to increase. If there is a demand for more quality nursing programs they will come! We need more nurses who have been taught how to critically think!

mattbsn · Mar 12, 2001

If we truly want to be considered a profession we do need to move to having a BSN as a basis for entry into nursing. However, I do agree that this will also impact the nursing shortage in the SHORT term. I realize that ADN prepared nurses usually have more clinical experience at graduation than BSN prepared nurses because they do not have to take additional courses to become more rounded. Many hospitals are starting internship programs and in the past we did have GN positions, maybe we should move back to that type of program for the 1st 6 months post graduation. If you don't believe that being viewed as a profession doesn't have its advantages look at what has happened in the short time since pharmacists have switched to requiring a PHARMD! We are still considered as a expenditure source and not as an asset. If you want to solve the nursing shortage we should bill nursing care independently for hours of service. If nursing is viewed as a Profit source and as a Profession the nursing shortage will resolve itself over time, even though the numbers of patients continue to increase. If there is a demand for more quality nursing programs they will come! We need more nurses who have been taught how to critically think!

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

As our society becomes more technologically advanced and the stream of information and knowledge grows by leaps and bounds, it becomes impossible to learn even the basics in two years. The best nurses are good, not becasue of their degree, but because they are motivated and committed.

I couldn't have said it any better. Absolutely a degree is not everything and doesn't make someone a good or bad nurse or even MD. However, the technology and advancements are such that a 2yr degree is not looked upon by others as enough education. Not only for management but for all aspects of nursing. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

As our society becomes more technologically advanced and the stream of information and knowledge grows by leaps and bounds, it becomes impossible to learn even the basics in two years. The best nurses are good, not becasue of their degree, but because they are motivated and committed.

I couldn't have said it any better. Absolutely a degree is not everything and doesn't make someone a good or bad nurse or even MD. However, the technology and advancements are such that a 2yr degree is not looked upon by others as enough education. Not only for management but for all aspects of nursing. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by bigjay:
Whew. Pretty lively discussion we got going here.

Here's the thing. As is quite obvious by the preceding discussion there is a split in the current nursing environment among the various levels of education. Therefore, it is fairly safe to say that by creating a standard level of education we would likely reduce (not totally eliminate) this diversive factor.

The question is what SHOULD be the minimum education level? Generally in the working world the higher the level of education for a job the greater respect it is given. Generally the greater degree of complexity and responsibilty of a job the higher the level of education required. Following this logic you could surmise that the BScN would likely be the ideal choice.

To clarify I am NOT saying that a BScN necessarily makes you a better nurse, initially prepares you better or worse, gives you super powers, etc. When I say higher degree of education I am talking academic perception only. Very few people would regard a college diploma as higher than a university degree.

I agree with sheripa's point that anyone can consider themselves a professional regardless of their level of education. However that does not mean others will share that view. I would consider a McDonald's employee who was polite, efficient and well mannered to act in a professional manner but I would not call them a professional. A slovenly attired, poorly spoken engineer would likely still be called a professional on the basis of their job and educational background. As well, if you go around calling yourself a "glorified butt wiper" don't expect many people to consider that professional....

On that note, I agree that total care is an important part of nursing in many areas. Definately not the main part though. Assessment, intervention and evaluation, the nursing process is the heart of nursing. Total care may be the task that takes up most of your day but that's all it is. A task. Many people could do that. Many people besides nurses do. However what they cannot do is provide the comprehensive assessment and evaluation throughout the total care process that nurses do. They cannot formulate interventions based on their assessment findings... well some probably could but not with the degree of certainty nurses should be able to.... When I am cleanig feces off a patient, that is not what I am focussed on. I am assessing the factors why they are incontinent (probably obvious but not always), their skin condition, problem solving if they is any way to avoid incontince, etc. That is how I differ from others who could do that job. I bring my pracitcal experience and education with me through all my daily tasks. Nurses can do many things and do them all well. That is both our strength and our curse in my opinion.

You are exactly right and very eloquently put. I do believe once a minimum standard is set and those who are RNs grandfathered in in some way and the ADN programs work in conjunction with the BSN programs, we will see all RNS working together to make policy in regards to health care. Once we proceed past the bickering and extablish set criteria, we will move forward in the areas of politics and standards of health. As people can see from the variety of posts, comments range from the disarmingly rude to very complex and inovative ideas both for and against such an idea. Once this debate is done and we are all on the same page, banded together as a group we can affect health care on both a national and international level.

Lburns · Mar 12, 2001

Originally posted by bigjay:
Whew. Pretty lively discussion we got going here.

Here's the thing. As is quite obvious by the preceding discussion there is a split in the current nursing environment among the various levels of education. Therefore, it is fairly safe to say that by creating a standard level of education we would likely reduce (not totally eliminate) this diversive factor.

The question is what SHOULD be the minimum education level? Generally in the working world the higher the level of education for a job the greater respect it is given. Generally the greater degree of complexity and responsibilty of a job the higher the level of education required. Following this logic you could surmise that the BScN would likely be the ideal choice.

To clarify I am NOT saying that a BScN necessarily makes you a better nurse, initially prepares you better or worse, gives you super powers, etc. When I say higher degree of education I am talking academic perception only. Very few people would regard a college diploma as higher than a university degree.

I agree with sheripa's point that anyone can consider themselves a professional regardless of their level of education. However that does not mean others will share that view. I would consider a McDonald's employee who was polite, efficient and well mannered to act in a professional manner but I would not call them a professional. A slovenly attired, poorly spoken engineer would likely still be called a professional on the basis of their job and educational background. As well, if you go around calling yourself a "glorified butt wiper" don't expect many people to consider that professional....

On that note, I agree that total care is an important part of nursing in many areas. Definately not the main part though. Assessment, intervention and evaluation, the nursing process is the heart of nursing. Total care may be the task that takes up most of your day but that's all it is. A task. Many people could do that. Many people besides nurses do. However what they cannot do is provide the comprehensive assessment and evaluation throughout the total care process that nurses do. They cannot formulate interventions based on their assessment findings... well some probably could but not with the degree of certainty nurses should be able to.... When I am cleanig feces off a patient, that is not what I am focussed on. I am assessing the factors why they are incontinent (probably obvious but not always), their skin condition, problem solving if they is any way to avoid incontince, etc. That is how I differ from others who could do that job. I bring my pracitcal experience and education with me through all my daily tasks. Nurses can do many things and do them all well. That is both our strength and our curse in my opinion.

You are exactly right and very eloquently put. I do believe once a minimum standard is set and those who are RNs grandfathered in in some way and the ADN programs work in conjunction with the BSN programs, we will see all RNS working together to make policy in regards to health care. Once we proceed past the bickering and extablish set criteria, we will move forward in the areas of politics and standards of health. As people can see from the variety of posts, comments range from the disarmingly rude to very complex and inovative ideas both for and against such an idea. Once this debate is done and we are all on the same page, banded together as a group we can affect health care on both a national and international level.