BSN minimum requirement

[Lburns]

It is my firm belief that the minimum requirement for nursing should be a BSN. We want to be accepted as a profession, yet we allow 2 year programs to dominate the field. Now I went to a 2 year program and will be finishing my BSN this semester. My school did a great job preparing me for "tasks" of nursing, but oh, it is so much more than that. Many other countries have moved or are moving towards 4yr degree minimums and the US needs to stay atop in this competative field. The nursing shortage will not always be here and it is to your advantage to get your degree now. The 2 yr programs will make a great footstep in the years to come, but the 4yr degree will become the RNs of the future. As nurses move into the 21st century we need to pull together to demonstrate our power as a profession, the only way to do this is to have strong, educated nurses in not just bedside tasks but critically thinking, politics, research and community health. Think about it, comments welcome.

[MartyL]

I've said it before and I will say it again. There is no "short-cut" school for doctors. There has to be a baseline level of education for nursing to become a serious profession. I am a BSN school graduate and I totally disagree with those that say that the BSN is less ready to function once out of school, and believes certain duties are "beneath" them! That's like saying all apples that grow on a particular tree have worms in them! There are "poorly" prepared nurses from every level of nurse-producing schools!

There are nurses who do not LOOK, BEHAVE nor CARE to be "professional" there are nurses who are in this profession because it is a better paying "JOB". I started out as a respiratory therapist. When I started, many of my ADN counterparts were bitterly jealous of my BSN--I didn't make a big deal about my degree--THEY DID! They would even joke and call me, RN, BSN, ACLS, BICTH--just because at our hospital HR decides what to put the degree you EARNED on your badge! I would have had it simply read "MARTY" 'cause that's all I tell my patients. I don't tell them "I'm your EDUCATED nurse today" Get real folks. Stop the bickering and let's raise the bar so we can raise our profession to the level it deserves to be at!

[This message has been edited by MartyL (edited March 20, 2001).]

[MartyL]

I've said it before and I will say it again. There is no "short-cut" school for doctors. There has to be a baseline level of education for nursing to become a serious profession. I am a BSN school graduate and I totally disagree with those that say that the BSN is less ready to function once out of school, and believes certain duties are "beneath" them! That's like saying all apples that grow on a particular tree have worms in them! There are "poorly" prepared nurses from every level of nurse-producing schools!

There are nurses who do not LOOK, BEHAVE nor CARE to be "professional" there are nurses who are in this profession because it is a better paying "JOB". I started out as a respiratory therapist. When I started, many of my ADN counterparts were bitterly jealous of my BSN--I didn't make a big deal about my degree--THEY DID! They would even joke and call me, RN, BSN, ACLS, BICTH--just because at our hospital HR decides what to put the degree you EARNED on your badge! I would have had it simply read "MARTY" 'cause that's all I tell my patients. I don't tell them "I'm your EDUCATED nurse today" Get real folks. Stop the bickering and let's raise the bar so we can raise our profession to the level it deserves to be at!

[This message has been edited by MartyL (edited March 20, 2001).]

[Mijourney]

Charles, as usual, and Healing Touch, you eloquently put into words viewpoints of which I agree and frequently fail to make clear myself. I'm not sure if many of us want to acknowledge or comprehend the complexity, depth of knowledge, and critical thinking that is needed to perform our work for consistently successful patient outcomes. As a diploma nurse, I've worked for years within the framework of the medical model only to find out that my efforts fell short of addressing that wholism as you pointed out Charles. After completing studies for my BSN, I then saw that the whole point of care should be about quality of life, not just care, cure, and treatment.

The medical model, in my opinion, has fallen far short of helping people to gain complete control and victory in their lives. And now, the system of recycling people over and over again in the system for profit is failing.

When I wrote about defining ourselves on the basis of our abilities and capabilities, I meant that as all-inclusive.

As I wrote in another post, I believe that taking the best from each nursing program and establishing one entry level for nursing practice would be in the best interest of nursing and the public over the long run. HealingTouch, you pointed out some of the ancillaries who have made that change. It's time for us to do likewise.

Originally posted by Charles S. Smith, RN, MS:

Molly, thanx. I will try to be succinct here, but that may be a bit difficult. The predominant role enacted by nurses in most (not all) settings is task driven and task oriented. The sense of worth we seem to hold on to is based on accomplishing tasks. Many posts on this thread speak to tasks, competence, getting things done efficiently, etc. Many performance evaluations also reflect how well someone does specific tasks. I learned tasks well, too, as a student, as a nursing assistant and as an RN. We tend to compare one another based on how well we start IVs, put in foleys, change dressings, keep patient care units clean and orderly, draw labs, etc..the list is endless. Should tasks be the benchmark for who is a "good nurse"? I say absolutely not. The critical emphasis should be on how well a nurse puts the whole patient picture together...integration.

Let me elaborate. I am working on a practical theory for nursing work/practice based on the concept of "integration". This is far different than the care/cure models taught in nursing and medical schools. My philosophy of nursing has changed over the years to reflect the nursing process more fully, but to extend it further. I believe that the central role of nursing is based on integration and not care. To care is not the sole domain of nursing. Caring occurs in all disciplines. Integration only occurs in nursing. We are the single discipline that actively interacts on an ongoing basis with all other health care disciplines and are the only discipline that has 24 hour vigil for our patients. We shoulder the responsibility for putting all the pieces together in one coherent plan to facilitate the health, well-being and/or transition (death) of our patients. We inform the rest of the healthcare team either actively or passively. Thus, we integrate (or should) all the pieces into a unified whole that is meaningful for both the patient and the team. This is true cognitive (thinking), problem-solving (critical thinking), creative and purposeful work. It has meaning for the patient, patients' families and for our profession.

I am no longer concerned with how well a novice nurse comes out of school knowing tasks. Tasks can be learned. I am more concerned with nurses coming out of school who can not think independently or critically. No amount of clinical hours in nursing school doing specific tasks in a specific regimented fashion can replace the ability to think. We seem to be diluting our ranks with individuals who can take instruction well and are efficient at "doing" (all necessary right now, but why do we need to hold onto this model for the future?). We seem to be reducing nursing to a level of mediocrity based on tasks rather than elevating the profession based on purpose and meaning. As long as we are task driven, we are interchangeable with other groups of care-givers who are equally capable of performing tasks. In reality, nurses have absorbed tasks over the years because MDs and other groups have no longer wanted to perform them. Nurses have even passed on certain tasks to others when we have no longer felt the pressing need to "do" them ourselves. So, what do we hold on to? We have the nursing process and we have integration as a basis for reshaping our roles for the future. From an economic standpoint, holding onto a task driven care model does not make us unique. If we are not unique, we have no niche market, nor do we have any basis for creating our own unique economic worth. Cranking out task masters over and over only serves to equilibrate supply with demand for task doers and serves a short term need only. When we create our own demand for unique services (by limiting the supply), we create economic incentives to use our real skills for improvements in healthcare and thus, create reimbursement commensurate with that performance.

You mention the professional vs. technical dichotomy that has been previously discussed. No, i do not envision professional and technical nurses. I envision one Professional nurse group (educated at the baccalaureate level at the very least) that is prepared well enough to perform the function of integration in the healthcare arena. This Nurse group will know the medical model, will know the technical care models of nursing, but will be responsible and accountable for outcomes of patient care, inpatient, outpatient, whatever setting through the process of integration. The actual tasks that we know of today in nursing will also be taught, but do not have to be done by nurses. We must be responsible and accountable for the outcomes, putting the pieces together for the benefit of all. I truly believe that nurses ought to be the gatekeepers to healthcare. I realize this is a huge stretch for many and I am leaving out many of the blanks. I hope, nonetheless, that you get the general idea. I do not base my performance on a set of tasks, although i am skilled and accomplished having given many years to learning them. What I do in my nursing role, better than any other discipline, is to cognitively process all aspects of the patient situation to enact a meaningful difference for the patient.

Well, I will reread this in a bit after I have fully awakened..I may make some revisions once i have had my second cup of coffee... thanx again, Molly

regards

chas

[Mijourney]

Charles, as usual, and Healing Touch, you eloquently put into words viewpoints of which I agree and frequently fail to make clear myself. I'm not sure if many of us want to acknowledge or comprehend the complexity, depth of knowledge, and critical thinking that is needed to perform our work for consistently successful patient outcomes. As a diploma nurse, I've worked for years within the framework of the medical model only to find out that my efforts fell short of addressing that wholism as you pointed out Charles. After completing studies for my BSN, I then saw that the whole point of care should be about quality of life, not just care, cure, and treatment.

The medical model, in my opinion, has fallen far short of helping people to gain complete control and victory in their lives. And now, the system of recycling people over and over again in the system for profit is failing.

When I wrote about defining ourselves on the basis of our abilities and capabilities, I meant that as all-inclusive.

As I wrote in another post, I believe that taking the best from each nursing program and establishing one entry level for nursing practice would be in the best interest of nursing and the public over the long run. HealingTouch, you pointed out some of the ancillaries who have made that change. It's time for us to do likewise.

Originally posted by Charles S. Smith, RN, MS:

Molly, thanx. I will try to be succinct here, but that may be a bit difficult. The predominant role enacted by nurses in most (not all) settings is task driven and task oriented. The sense of worth we seem to hold on to is based on accomplishing tasks. Many posts on this thread speak to tasks, competence, getting things done efficiently, etc. Many performance evaluations also reflect how well someone does specific tasks. I learned tasks well, too, as a student, as a nursing assistant and as an RN. We tend to compare one another based on how well we start IVs, put in foleys, change dressings, keep patient care units clean and orderly, draw labs, etc..the list is endless. Should tasks be the benchmark for who is a "good nurse"? I say absolutely not. The critical emphasis should be on how well a nurse puts the whole patient picture together...integration.

Let me elaborate. I am working on a practical theory for nursing work/practice based on the concept of "integration". This is far different than the care/cure models taught in nursing and medical schools. My philosophy of nursing has changed over the years to reflect the nursing process more fully, but to extend it further. I believe that the central role of nursing is based on integration and not care. To care is not the sole domain of nursing. Caring occurs in all disciplines. Integration only occurs in nursing. We are the single discipline that actively interacts on an ongoing basis with all other health care disciplines and are the only discipline that has 24 hour vigil for our patients. We shoulder the responsibility for putting all the pieces together in one coherent plan to facilitate the health, well-being and/or transition (death) of our patients. We inform the rest of the healthcare team either actively or passively. Thus, we integrate (or should) all the pieces into a unified whole that is meaningful for both the patient and the team. This is true cognitive (thinking), problem-solving (critical thinking), creative and purposeful work. It has meaning for the patient, patients' families and for our profession.

I am no longer concerned with how well a novice nurse comes out of school knowing tasks. Tasks can be learned. I am more concerned with nurses coming out of school who can not think independently or critically. No amount of clinical hours in nursing school doing specific tasks in a specific regimented fashion can replace the ability to think. We seem to be diluting our ranks with individuals who can take instruction well and are efficient at "doing" (all necessary right now, but why do we need to hold onto this model for the future?). We seem to be reducing nursing to a level of mediocrity based on tasks rather than elevating the profession based on purpose and meaning. As long as we are task driven, we are interchangeable with other groups of care-givers who are equally capable of performing tasks. In reality, nurses have absorbed tasks over the years because MDs and other groups have no longer wanted to perform them. Nurses have even passed on certain tasks to others when we have no longer felt the pressing need to "do" them ourselves. So, what do we hold on to? We have the nursing process and we have integration as a basis for reshaping our roles for the future. From an economic standpoint, holding onto a task driven care model does not make us unique. If we are not unique, we have no niche market, nor do we have any basis for creating our own unique economic worth. Cranking out task masters over and over only serves to equilibrate supply with demand for task doers and serves a short term need only. When we create our own demand for unique services (by limiting the supply), we create economic incentives to use our real skills for improvements in healthcare and thus, create reimbursement commensurate with that performance.

You mention the professional vs. technical dichotomy that has been previously discussed. No, i do not envision professional and technical nurses. I envision one Professional nurse group (educated at the baccalaureate level at the very least) that is prepared well enough to perform the function of integration in the healthcare arena. This Nurse group will know the medical model, will know the technical care models of nursing, but will be responsible and accountable for outcomes of patient care, inpatient, outpatient, whatever setting through the process of integration. The actual tasks that we know of today in nursing will also be taught, but do not have to be done by nurses. We must be responsible and accountable for the outcomes, putting the pieces together for the benefit of all. I truly believe that nurses ought to be the gatekeepers to healthcare. I realize this is a huge stretch for many and I am leaving out many of the blanks. I hope, nonetheless, that you get the general idea. I do not base my performance on a set of tasks, although i am skilled and accomplished having given many years to learning them. What I do in my nursing role, better than any other discipline, is to cognitively process all aspects of the patient situation to enact a meaningful difference for the patient.

Well, I will reread this in a bit after I have fully awakened..I may make some revisions once i have had my second cup of coffee... thanx again, Molly

regards

chas

[MartyL]

Originally posted by sheripa:

Get a life and eat ****!! Ha Ha.

Comments like THAT is what brings this profession down. Childish reactions, negative feedback--I don't think I would like to work with a nurse that has such a narrow minded view of the world that one cannot express opinions with out being **** on. Do nursing a favor, grow up, Sheri.

[MartyL]

Originally posted by sheripa:

Get a life and eat ****!! Ha Ha.

Comments like THAT is what brings this profession down. Childish reactions, negative feedback--I don't think I would like to work with a nurse that has such a narrow minded view of the world that one cannot express opinions with out being **** on. Do nursing a favor, grow up, Sheri.

[JennieBSN]

Originally posted by MartyL:

Comments like THAT is what brings this profession down. Childish reactions, negative feedback--I don't think I would like to work with a nurse that has such a narrow minded view of the world that one cannot express opinions with out being **** on. Do nursing a favor, grow up, Sheri.

PREACH IT, GIRLFRIEND!!

[JennieBSN]

Originally posted by MartyL:

Comments like THAT is what brings this profession down. Childish reactions, negative feedback--I don't think I would like to work with a nurse that has such a narrow minded view of the world that one cannot express opinions with out being **** on. Do nursing a favor, grow up, Sheri.

PREACH IT, GIRLFRIEND!!

[Navy Nurse]

Hey Buck,

There are some BSN Programs that are tailored for people to obtain their BSN while giving credit for other degrees that they have, Regents College is one that comes to mind first. Maybe some of the nurses from these types of programs don't have the clinical skills as you do, but to link all BSN programs together is wrong. I graduated from an ADN program first and those two years were intensive clinic studies. I can also provided you with proof that the ADN Program I attended had a 98% first pass rate on the State Boards.

Diploma Programs are hospital based so if anyone is trying to create revenue it would be the hospitals. They can use their students as a labor force and get government education funds funneled into their facilities.

I think the initials should be used to identify the accomplishments of the individual. I for one was proud to be able to add the BSN after the RN title. I worked hard and earned it.

Besides you should be happy be able to live in work in a city that has the largest hospitals in America and is always on the cutting edge of medical research. Take advantage of your surroundings.

[Navy Nurse]

Hey Buck,

There are some BSN Programs that are tailored for people to obtain their BSN while giving credit for other degrees that they have, Regents College is one that comes to mind first. Maybe some of the nurses from these types of programs don't have the clinical skills as you do, but to link all BSN programs together is wrong. I graduated from an ADN program first and those two years were intensive clinic studies. I can also provided you with proof that the ADN Program I attended had a 98% first pass rate on the State Boards.

Diploma Programs are hospital based so if anyone is trying to create revenue it would be the hospitals. They can use their students as a labor force and get government education funds funneled into their facilities.

I think the initials should be used to identify the accomplishments of the individual. I for one was proud to be able to add the BSN after the RN title. I worked hard and earned it.

Besides you should be happy be able to live in work in a city that has the largest hospitals in America and is always on the cutting edge of medical research. Take advantage of your surroundings.

[opie]

Man, this site is smoking!!! Dale Earnheart, the recently deceased race car driver, left a 10 million dollar estate even though he dropped out of high school. There will be those that suceed without "degrees". However, for most people, it is a necessary journey to prove to others that they are "qualified" to do the job. Again, all of us know nurses that do NOT have advanced degrees, over others that do, we would choose to care for our loved ones, but remember, the public and other do not know the difference. We must have some minimal standard, whether it be adn or bsn. Nurses have NO power in deciding their careers. CHARLES SMITH RNBSN ? and mijourney are on target. (excuse gram and spell checks)

[opie]

Man, this site is smoking!!! Dale Earnheart, the recently deceased race car driver, left a 10 million dollar estate even though he dropped out of high school. There will be those that suceed without "degrees". However, for most people, it is a necessary journey to prove to others that they are "qualified" to do the job. Again, all of us know nurses that do NOT have advanced degrees, over others that do, we would choose to care for our loved ones, but remember, the public and other do not know the difference. We must have some minimal standard, whether it be adn or bsn. Nurses have NO power in deciding their careers. CHARLES SMITH RNBSN ? and mijourney are on target. (excuse gram and spell checks)