BSN is a joke

MunoRN, RN · Oct 13, 2017

Not all of it will be directly relevant to you but it is likely relevant to another. Nursing is wonderfully diverse, afterall.
I will say that hidden in the posts here that disparaged advanced nursing degrees were actual arguments in favor of additional education. Someone mentioned how to improve processes one only needed ethics and a good understanding of the process. Ethics, systems theories, and program evaluation are taught in BSN courses. Another mentioned that a degree isn't necessary to learn how to read research or analyze evidence based practice. Well, you could also learn to be a nurse without attending any formalized education... but if you have the desire to take the time and learn research and EBP, you might as well get credit for it.

Again, none of these examples are found solely in BSN programs, these same concepts are taught, typically at the same level, in ASN as well as BSN programs.

MunoRN, RN · Oct 13, 2017

There was a time when it was accurate to generalize that the nursing education ASN programs was being different than BSN programs, and there were deficiencies in ASN education, as a result ASN education is now basically interchangeable with that of a BSN. All that's really left differentiating the two are letters we use to refer to them, it's literally just semantics at this point. So I'm curious if people really believe that letters we use to refer to a nurse's education make a significant difference if the education itself is effectively the same?

Wuzzie · Oct 13, 2017

I wholeheartedly agree, and in essence, this is the reason behind the BSN push (along with the almighty $$$). Outliers take it upon themselves to be lifetime learners, the rest, do what is required of them and not much more.
Again, you are misrepresenting the statistics: BSN is not absolutely necessary but it is relatively necessary. You made that argument yourself.

Actually I don't think I am. I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the posters whose position ARE absolutes. FTR I am all for the BSN being the entry point for nursing and I hope it happens sooner than later. But not because I think it's superior. I just think in the court of public opinion it will support nursing as an actual profession rather than a trade. I think we need to do a better job of supporting high quality continuing ed and ecertifications as well.

cleback · Oct 13, 2017

Again, none of these examples are found solely in BSN programs, these same concepts are taught, typically at the same level, in ASN as well as BSN programs.

The asn programs in my area do not. I'm not entirely sure where you are getting that information from to make such a blanket statement.

dustbowldarrell · Oct 13, 2017

I have an ADN and an Engineering degree A REAL DEGREE. My wife just finished her BSN from UTA. I laugh at a BSN! It is a joke! (edit) The idiot hospital system that I work for just let an ADN with 32 years experience in her area go because she wouldn't get her BSN (she is 60 years old)! Misled nursing leaders in the Dallas area I (edit). But what else can be expected from stupid women who think they're geniuses. Yeah, I'm (edit).

nurseguy22 · Oct 13, 2017

No i think a lot of you missed my points. Maybe I wasnt clear.

1. i want to learn things I know I will use and will advance my practice. I want to be more competent. For example a co-0worker and I were looking over a patient's chart the other day. My co-worker who is an MSN knew so much more than me about the labs and tests. I want that knowledge.

2. I am required to get my BSN to keep my job.

3. I expect a BSN program to be advanced nursing. Not the exact same social concepts covered in my ASN.

4. Not many nurses work in public health or research. Why are we focusing so hard on preparing nurses for research when almost none of us work in that area? I mean sure we need to use EBP. But we don't need to be trained to the extent, or in the fashion the BSN trains us.

5. No language. We need languages. We deal with all sorts of people. Why doiesn't nursing curriculum have language? Seriously we spend all this time on a skill like APA formatting or in home family dynamics which we will rarely use or see, but no language. No advanced lab values study, etc.

6. After a year of working I think another pharm class wouldn't be terrible. Combine it with the lab values class or something, or like advanced assessments. Heck even a class on medical equipment would be great. I run into stuff all the time I'm not quite sure about, but am responsible for.

7. Why doesn't BSN have useful things like certifications? Like med surg or ACLS?

8.Honestly the skills in most BSN programs dont apply to most positions nurses fill. Nurses who actually do home visits or work in demographics or research are relatively rare. Why don't we focus on what most nurses do and need to know?

9. Not everyone gets a terminal degree like me. The number one thing new nurses need is how manage time and be efficient. Why don't we work on that?

10.I really think there is an enormous diufference between what I actually do day to day, and what BSN programs teach. If you want to go in public health save it for a masters specialty. Most of us never will.

allnurses Guide · Oct 13, 2017

No i think a lot of you missed my points. Maybe I wasnt clear.
1. i want to learn things I know I will use and will advance my practice. I want to be more competent. For example a co-0worker and I were looking over a patient's chart the other day. My co-worker who is an MSN knew so much more than me about the labs and tests. I want that knowledge. There is a significant difference between ADN-BSN bridge and an MSN, plus some of that may be dependent on her experience.
2. I am required to get my BSN to keep my job. Then there really isn't another option: do the BSN for what it is or find another job. It's sad but true.
3. I expect a BSN program to be advanced nursing. Not the exact same social concepts covered in my ASN.Then your expectations were not correct which might be fueling your frustration.
4. Not many nurses work in public health or research. Why are we focusing so hard on preparing nurses for research when almost none of us work in that area? I mean sure we need to use EBP. But we don't need to be trained to the extent, or in the fashion the BSN trains us. Based on what? Your opinion? Have you looked at the extant data on the topic, there is lots...
5. No language. We need languages. We deal with all sorts of people. Why doiesn't nursing curriculum have language? Seriously we spend all this time on a skill like APA formatting or in home family dynamics which we will rarely use or see, but no language. No advanced lab values study, etc. Language I agree with it can/should be part of the humanities req of the BSN.
6. After a year of working I think another pharm class wouldn't be terrible. Combine it with the lab values class or something, or like advanced assessments. Heck even a class on medical equipment would be great. I run into stuff all the time I'm not quite sure about, but am responsible for. This is part of MSN and APN programs.
7. Why doesn't BSN have useful things like certifications? Like med surg or ACLS? Because certifications and academic degrees are two completely different things.
8.Honestly the skills in most BSN programs dont apply to most positions nurses fill. Nurses who actually do home visits or work in demographics or research are relatively rare. Why don't we focus on what most nurses do and need to know? Again, what's your basis for this assumption. There is considerable data on the topic. And again, you are assuming that the BSN push is being driven by nursing and for the most part its not.
9. Not everyone gets a terminal degree like me. The number one thing new nurses need is how manage time and be efficient. Why don't we work on that? Then seek out coursework on this!
10.I really think there is an enormous diufference between what I actually do day to day, and what BSN programs teach. If you want to go in public health save it for a masters specialty. Most of us never will. The application is more than that of public health.

My bold/italics above.

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 13, 2017

There was a time when it was accurate to generalize that the nursing education ASN programs was being different than BSN programs, and there were deficiencies in ASN education, as a result ASN education is now basically interchangeable with that of a BSN. All that's really left differentiating the two are letters we use to refer to them, it's literally just semantics at this point. So I'm curious if people really believe that letters we use to refer to a nurse's education make a significant difference if the education itself is effectively the same?

Definitely NOT in my region. We have ADN programs that take a student from high school to ADN in 15 months -- with no pre-reqs. They are just factories that produce new grads who can take the test (with the bare minimum passing rates to keep the school open). In my region there is a HUGE gap between these programs and the local BSN programs.

We do have some better ADN programs at the community colleges -- but their curricula omit much of the content found in the BSN programs. They may "briefly touch" on some of the topics, but do not go into any depth. (e.g. statistics, research, theory, leadership, community health, population health, evidence-based practice, health policy, education, etc.)

Just because you live near some ADN programs that are ripping students off by requiring BSN level achievement, but only offering ADN level credit ... don't assume there isn't a difference between the degrees everywhere else.

If I were you (or your colleagues who go to these grandiose ADN programs) -- I would feel cheated -- or foolish for having attended such a school. If you are right in your assessment of the curricula, those students should be awarded BSN's not ADN's and those schools who are ripping those students off should be ashamed of themselves.

l150 · Oct 13, 2017

I work in a major metropolis and ALL the hospitals told the nurses also in the early 2000s, so I completely understand what you are saying. Any that had LPNs told them they had to become a RN within a certain amount of time or leave or retire if you are of that age. Here if you want to work at one of them , even an ADN isn't good enough, a BSN is mandatory.

42pines · Oct 13, 2017

I see a lot of: "Degree has no place in magnet status."

From: 2005 Magnet Application Manual. American Nurses Credentialing Center, (2004)

14: Professional development: The healthcare organization values and supports the personal and professional growth and development of staff; a continuous learning environment is evident. Programs that promote formal education, professional certification, and career development are evident.

Here, I'll translate that: "You have an ADN, you have not grown, and by gosh we will force you to grow: Get back there and get a real degree now, or else."

Ok, that's a bit tongue in cheek but sorry, degree count does matter to an entity trying to achieve magnet status and since it's temporary, that's an area that can picked on in the future causes decertification of magnet status.

Interestingly I have two BS's already and I'm entering WGU for a ADN to BSN. Why? I would like to attain a Master's at U of A in Birmingham (UAB) in Occ Health Nursing. If I enter the ADN > MSN program I cannot get NIOSH funding. If I attain the BSN at WGU for $3-6 grand then I should be eligible for NIOSH funding making my MSN very, very inexpensive. UAB would require a semester or two to jump from ADN to MSN anyway, so this way I get that behind me (I'll bring in 83 credits when I start at WGU).

One would think ADN is enough and one would think certainly that 2 BS's are enough but even with 3, each of them, looking overall, adds to my knowledge and skills. And a last thought: ADN now is essentially 3 years of work. BSN really only adds 1 year. But I do agree with OP, these ADN>BSN really ought to be more pertinent and focused upon what it is that WE do.

bgxyrnf, MSN, RN · Oct 13, 2017

Cowboyardee, I disagree with your conclusion that nursing education is failing because a BSN can not identify certain rhythms on a monitor.

I do not hold a BSN but using the level of competence and knowledge with which I graduated from engineering school with a BS as a comparison, I disagree... basic cardiac rhythms is fundamental medical knowledge and should be considered the same for a BSN nurse (or any graduate nurse for that matter).

While I value education and consider MSN>BSN>ASN, I strongly believe that nursing education on the whole is sorely lacking in the hard sciences.

Nursing education in general emphasizes social sciences far too much in comparison to the medical sciences (biological and physical sciences).

MurseJJ · Oct 13, 2017

No i think a lot of you missed my points. Maybe I wasnt clear.
1. i want to learn things I know I will use and will advance my practice. I want to be more competent. For example a co-0worker and I were looking over a patient's chart the other day. My co-worker who is an MSN knew so much more than me about the labs and tests. I want that knowledge.
2. I am required to get my BSN to keep my job.
3. I expect a BSN program to be advanced nursing. Not the exact same social concepts covered in my ASN.
4. Not many nurses work in public health or research. Why are we focusing so hard on preparing nurses for research when almost none of us work in that area? I mean sure we need to use EBP. But we don't need to be trained to the extent, or in the fashion the BSN trains us.
5. No language. We need languages. We deal with all sorts of people. Why doiesn't nursing curriculum have language? Seriously we spend all this time on a skill like APA formatting or in home family dynamics which we will rarely use or see, but no language. No advanced lab values study, etc.
6. After a year of working I think another pharm class wouldn't be terrible. Combine it with the lab values class or something, or like advanced assessments. Heck even a class on medical equipment would be great. I run into stuff all the time I'm not quite sure about, but am responsible for.
7. Why doesn't BSN have useful things like certifications? Like med surg or ACLS?
8.Honestly the skills in most BSN programs dont apply to most positions nurses fill. Nurses who actually do home visits or work in demographics or research are relatively rare. Why don't we focus on what most nurses do and need to know?
9. Not everyone gets a terminal degree like me. The number one thing new nurses need is how manage time and be efficient. Why don't we work on that?
10.I really think there is an enormous diufference between what I actually do day to day, and what BSN programs teach. If you want to go in public health save it for a masters specialty. Most of us never will.

It seems as if you were hoping that the BSN would be more like an MSN (at least, your description of what you were hoping to get out of the BSN is more in line with the offerings of an MSN)? The advanced sciences that you are looking for are found at the graduate level. If you are not interested in being an APRN, MSN programs such as clinical nurse leader and nurse educator provide advanced patho/pharm/assessment. BSN programs typically provide the introductory/entry-level patho, pharm, and assessment courses (many ADN programs do not include dedicated coursework in those areas, instead covering similar content in the clinical nursing courses). The dedicated courses in the sciences found in BSN programs presumably would provide you more depth, however certainly not at the advanced practitioner level.

As far as research, many clinical nurses do indeed perform research, EBP, and QI projects. I personally am part of a research fellowship for clinical bedside nurses which is a joint endeavor between the medical center and the affiliated nursing school. Although I do use the principles I learned in my BSN research and statistics courses, I rely heavily on my PhD-prepared faculty mentor, as the BSN research course is nowhere near the rigor of the research preparation found at the graduate level.

If you are looking for "advanced nursing", you need to look at the graduate level. Not sure why you would expect the BSN to do so.