Any Legal Nurse Consultants who did not take any courses?

lindarn · Aug 1, 2006

I know that the courses are probably great but are there any LNC's who are working but have not taken the courses? I have done a great deal of reading by nurses who are LNC's who have written books on starting this type of business. Just interested in seeing how those without the courses may be fairing.

I have never taken any LNC course, only a two day seminar by the Nurse Attorneys here in Washington State. I took this 11 years ago and struck out on my own. I have never been interested in taking the courses that cost thousand of dollars. Legal Nursing is really only doing what you already know how to do -reading medical records, and doing medical research, only for attorneys.

The courses are more marketing courses that you can take at a community college for a fraction of what is charged for that courses. You can do it on our own, and not go into debt for a small fortune.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Trauma Columnist · Aug 1, 2006

I think to present a balanced picture, one should consider that education and self-promotion are very important in the LNC career. I am NOT an LNC but have had to go to court multiple times as a witness r/t my job in the ER. I was always asked for my educational credentials and the attorneys always asked this as a matter of record. When I have asked why my education makes a difference, I was told (by several attorneys) that education is the great divider when it comes to court. Good luck.

lindarn · Aug 1, 2006

I think to present a balanced picture, one should consider that education and self-promotion are very important in the LNC career. I am NOT an LNC but have had to go to court multiple times as a witness r/t my job in the ER. I was always asked for my educational credentials and the attorneys always asked this as a matter of record. When I have asked why my education makes a difference, I was told (by several attorneys) that education is the great divider when it comes to court. Good luck.

There are also numerous threads on this listserve about lawyers who could care less if you have taken a class. The classes are not about LNC but marketing, contrary to what people promote, while marketing is important, it is not a cetification that you really know what you are doing. There is a certain learning curve with LNC, like anything else, that cannot be taught in either a 6 hour class, or one week "crash course".

Why do you need a class to teach you how to read medical records? Don't you do that every day? Are you illiterate and need to be taught to read? Lawyers need nurses who can read medical records with a critical eye, and be able to communicate the "meat" of the records to them in an understandable way. You also need to be able to write well, and communicate this in a written report. All of the overpriced legal nurse courses in the world will not buy you credibility with attorneys if you cannot do the above things. These skills are not for sale for any price.

I have NEVER been asked by an attorney if I have taken a "certification class" in LNC. They want to know if you have knowledge in a particular field (ex. Nursing homes), and can figure out "what the heck happened". Period.

Also, if you are reviewing a case out of you expertise, say OB, when you have worked only adult med surg, you have no business reviewing, and given opinions on a case where your expertise will be in question in a courtroom. Regardless if you have "purchased reports" from someone selling reports in differant specialties.

There are too many nurses who think if taking an LNC class will make up for lack of knowledge in a particular area of nursing, a lack of assertiveness, and inability to write well. You have to be pushy in a certain way to market to anyone. You have to be willing to do "cold calls", to attorneys, and not be crushed by rejection.

The AALNC (American Association of Legal Nurse Consultants- the ONLY LNC organization that is approved by the ANA), has wonderful marketing materials that you can purchase on line. They also have just started an on- line "Legal Nurse Course" that looks good, and I would recommend it. It is very reasonably priced, as is their books and marketing materials. It is done in modules, and they have just finished the second module. You purchase each module as you are ready to take it.

Too much "LNC Education", can also make you look like a "hired gun" to the opposing attorneys, and can work against you if you have to testify in a depostion, or in a courtroom. I hope that helps. PM me if ou have any questions.

Lindarn, RN ,BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

henayneiCLNC · Aug 2, 2006

Linda, I am glad you found a path that worked for you. But, you admit you have never taken the course, yet state with such certainty the syllabus?

VMI is 6+ days - only on the last day or so is marketing addressed and then the time is not devoted only to marketing....

there is also a 2 day apprenticeship available after the 6 day seminar - half of that 2 days is about marketing.....

as with any business there is much to know aside from marketing and VMI program provides a wealth of education, information, resources and standards for practice. Yes, the reason we are all so good at this is that we have the foundation of experience that gives unique skills - but having those who have learned how to most effectively manipulate and apply those skills AND who share hard learned additional skills (to avoid recreating the wheel so to speak) is invaluable.

every business requires marketing - and marketing to attorneys has some very unique aspects that are not going to be taught at the local community college usually. It is not like marketing a coffee shop, handbag or greeting card business to the public

Wgbem - I wish you the best of success what ever path you chose - know that there are here folks who will gladly encourage and support you and answer your questions (or point you to where you can find the answers :)

b'Shalom

Henaynei

Wgbem · Aug 2, 2006

Thank you all for the great posts. Now another question... How do you decide where to send out letters/marketing material? Do you just randomly send them out or do you have some type of method? Thank you in advance.

henayneiCLNC · Aug 3, 2006

I used the phone book and the lawyer sites on the web (state bar association, Lawyers.com and others) and focused on attorneys who are active in the fields in which my skills can be applied.

VMI also has a plethora of information on this in her course and on her CLNC site that gives guidance with technique, content of your letter - how to present yourself and your business in a professional manner that speaks to the attorney, resources and techniques for researching and screening attorney prospects and what to stay away from etc.....

b'Shalom

Henaynei

mentor · Aug 24, 2006

I know that the courses are probably great but are there any LNC's who are working but have not taken the courses? I have done a great deal of reading by nurses who are LNC's who have written books on starting this type of business. Just interested in seeing how those without the courses may be fairing.

Legal nurse consulting is based on what you know as a nurse. The core curriculum by AALNC will tell you everything you need to know about the profession. Buy the book. No need to spend thousands for a class that will tell you the same thing. This is just good marketing and does not guarentee you will make $$$ from home. Review of record, either for the plaintiff or defense, is a long process and often takes many years to complete a case. The best way to start is to talk to a lawyer you know and to be truelly an expert in your field of nursing...that means write articles about your speciality, give lectures (even to fellow nurses) or teach your speciality. That's what makes you a desirable expert, not someone who says you are with a piece of paper.

Lawyers do not care what you know about law...that's their job. They want to know what you know about nursing and to be able to make a simple explanation of what happened to the jury!

I never took a course and I am very busy in the field. Many lawyers shy away from nurses who market their skills and advertise. They are often considered "hired" experts rather than anyone who really knows the nursing standards. Hope this helps.

Editorial Team / Admin · Aug 24, 2006

hello, mentor and welcome to allnurses.com and the legal nursing forum

yes, i am currently mentoring several rns who plan on doing this without formal lnc preparation. nothing wrong with that in the least. i do advocate receiving formal education, however. it helps tie in the law with nursing/medicine and the application of the standards of care as well as set a firm basis for how law and medicine interact.

the rn must have adequate clinical expertise to do this job, i agree. only then can one truly be prepared to take on these challenging cases.

as for attorneys not hiring because nurses "advertise" and/or market as consultants? that is not exactly correct information. but, if the nurse advertises as an expert, especially if advertising services as expert witness, this will prove suspect and can be construed as "hired gun". the lnc who advertises his/her expertise as a consultant actually educates the attorney/s to what we can offer them and how we can actually be a postive factor in their business.

it is good to see that you are successful as an lnc. and, good to have you with us here at allnurses.

madwife2002, BSN, RN · Aug 25, 2006

I have NEVER been asked by an attorney if I have taken a "certification class" in LNC. They want to know if you have knowledge in a particular field (ex. Nursing homes), and can figure out "what the heck happened". Period.
Also, if you are reviewing a case out of you expertise, say OB, when you have worked only adult med surg, you have no business reviewing, and given opinions on a case where your expertise will be in question in a courtroom. Regardless if you have "purchased reports" from someone selling reports in differant specialties.

If you are acting as an LNC then why would you be questioned in court? Only if you are employed as a testifying expert should you be appearing in court. It would be dangerous to your reputation if you did not know in which role you were being utilised, especially as all notes for a TE are discoverable but in the role as an LNC you would not wish all your findings to be discoverable.

LNC's can review any kind of medical notes, it does not have to be within their field of expertise.

Hagabel · Sep 12, 2006

I have to wade in here and make a comment. I have been practising as an LNC independently since Jan 2006 after completing the VM course in Vegas last Oct. I have received al ot of good advice from a lot of people including Siri, thanks!

I spent a lot of money for the basic VM course and although very helpful, thought it was very over priced. I did not find I needed the mentoring provided and did not find the website helpful at all.

I joined the local chapter of the AALNC and have found all my cases(8 to date) throught local contacts including neighbors, colleagues and have done no marketing or advertising!

If it had been around at the time, I would have taken the AALNC on line course that is now just coming out.

I think it is a personal decision whether you need to take a course or not, but I think the one you take is irrelevant to the attorney. All I have found they care about is your CV and your experience in the relevant field.

One comment I do have to make re VM course, and I have plenty of good comments is that most of my colleagues have not found their cases through marketing, mainly through networking and in our part of the country noone is making $150 per hr straight off, unless you may be testifying.

Hope this helps.

Editorial Team / Admin · Sep 13, 2006

and, nice to have you, hagabel!!!

you are most welcome! i'm glad i could help.

i agree with you that the aalnc is an excellent organization. the online programs are going to be an good means of education for the rn desiring lnc. agree with you.

i've found the attorney, as you said, doesn't care about the rn lnc education and in fact, i've had to educate them on just exactly what an lnc is.

are you planning to attend the aalnc convention next year? btw....congratulations on your cases!!!!!!!!!!!! (did the first one scare you to death?)