Any French, English, or Canadian Nurses Here?

nurse4change · Jul 11, 2007

Hi Trudy,

I am not from the aforementioned countries, but I can assure you that all of those things are true. One of the fellows I work with is Canadian and was quite surprised when my colleage said she'd be returning to work 3 months after her delivery. Six months is standard in Canada.

I posted in this thread because I too am interested in hearing from international nurses. I work in a major academic institution and my colleagues and I are forming a grassroots organization to gain support for HR676, a bill before congress that will provide universal healthcare to all Americans.

Please email me at nurses4change at gmail dot com with any comments you may have regarding the benefits/downfalls to your healthcare legislation. Also, if any nurses have worked in both another country as a nurse and the US, that would be particularly helpful.

Thanks in advance

Morning-glory · Jul 11, 2007

Canada is the place to be. I haven't seen the movie, but standart mat leave is 6 months with a usual extention from the gov't for another 6 months. No Nanny here, but the pay is adequate to maintain a decent lifestyle. In Ontario, the RN pay scale goes from $25-36/hour, plus benefits, about 300 hours of sick time a year, 21 days vacation to start and many other things like education. I work 37.5 hours a week, anything over that is OT. We get 12 statutory holidays a year. If you work on a stat you get 1.5x regular pay, and OT is 2x regular pay and you still get a day off when you want it. Universal health care means you are not counting bandages to bill the patient, nor are you hounding them for money. Taxes are impressive though. Almost 1/3 of my salary goes to the government. It is still worth it.

Diana,RN · Jul 11, 2007

I am from Germany and want to add my 2 cents. I have not seen MM's movie nor do I intend to do so. Healthcare in Europe is NOT free but certainly less expensive. There a few major health insurance providers to choose from, health insurance is mandatory and monthly payment is based on income, meaning: You make a lot of money, you pay more. If you are self employed you may choose to have private health insurance, that will cost you dearly.

Mothers staying home after birth: In Germany you may stay home for up to six months (not sure anymore, this info is 2 years old). Your employer has to keep you as an employee for 3 years but may hire temp. workers to fill in for you. While on "Mutterschutz" you get a small amount of "income", partially paid by state and employer. While pregnant you are not allowed to work nights, you are not allowed in isolation rooms, you are not allowed to be near radiation, chemo and other caustic agents, you are not allowed to lift pt's.

I worked 38.5 hours per week (scheduled) but ended up with at least 50 hrs per week (understaffed all the time). You do not generally get overtime pay, you accrue your hours and have to take time off. I had 25 days paid vacation per year, and the only shift diff. was on nights. I worked all 3 shifts on an irregular schedule (talk about burning out quickly). In LTC facilities the RN-Pt. ratio is about 40 to 1. When I worked nights I had to care for 72 residents, the majority high acuity and heavy with the help of one aide. On top of that I was earning the equivalent of $10.45/hr, but was on payroll as salary (no OT).

God bless America, I am sooo glad to be here!

Diana

edit: income tax: 35% aaaargh

DusktilDawn · Jul 11, 2007

I worked as a nurse in Canada. I can only tell you what that was like.

Specifically, do nurses work a 35 hour week? How many other job classifications do?m from Canada.

Where I worked it was 37.5 hours a week to be considered full time. However, many hospitals in Ontario will hire people part-time (to save on benefits) and than want them available at their whim. As a part-time employee, yes you could work full-time hours and then some, however that may mean:

Working different shifts: you may be asked or scheduled day, evening, or night shift in the same week.

Doubling back: which you would be entitled to overtime if there was less than 16 hours between your shifts, however they will ask you to do that for straight time and if you refuse they will simply ask someone else who will.

Coming in at a moments notice: they believe that as a part-time employee you should be sitting waiting for them to call.

Having your shift cancelled if census is low: with part-time employees they could do that.

I have better working hours and a better schedule where I now work in the states. In fact I have work options I would never have in Canadian.

Do you get unlimited paid sick time? Do employers keep their businesses running when people are out sick? How?

NO unlimited sick time. Full-time staff could accrue a certain amount of sick days each year. Part-time employees do not accrue any sick days, since the trend is to hire people part-time, guess what? Yep, the hospital doesn't pay a part-time person for calling in sick. No such thing as agency nurses to fill in the gap for sick calls, you work short if there are sick calls. If your lucky, and I mean if all the planets and the stars are in perfect alignment, you may possibly have someone floated from another floor. If you were really lucky, after the charge nurse spent an hour or two on the phone calling everyone, someone might come in.

Where I work now, I can accrue what is known as combined-time off, which I can use for calling in sick or for vacation.

Do you get a year off after childbirth?

Yes you can. However, the government pays Employment Insurance to a mother to a maximum of $413 per week in 2003, it may be slightly more now.

Does a nanny come to help a new mom twice each week for 4 hours per day?

NOPE.

Do you really get a minimum of 5 weeks' vacation? How about holidays?

NOPE. Minimum amount of vacation time when I started work in a Canadian hospital was 1 week. Seniority played a role in how much vacation time you could have. You may start with only 1-2 weeks paid vacation and that will increase based on your length of service. Depending on where you work, if you work there long enough you could wind up with 5 weeks (or more) paid vacation.

How do people view nurses?

The general public does tend to view nurses pretty much the same as in the US. They have no clue what our job really is. The big difference is that it does not revolve around "CUSTOMER SERVICE," and I find nurses have less problems setting limits on inappropriate behavior because of this factor. I also find patients are far less likely to exhibit the "customer" entitlement attitude.

Do doctors respect you?

I didn't work in a teaching hospital in Canada, and I found that there was more disrespect from doctors, bear in mind many of them were older and from the days when nurses gave them their seats when they came onto the floor. I work in a teaching hospital in the states and find the doctors far more respectful towards nurses in my present environment.

Does the public look up to you, trust you, think highly of you?

I think attitudes in these areas are pretty similar in both Canada and the US.

Thanks for any insight on what it is like to be a nurse and/or citizen in your country?

1. Hospitals are unionized. I'm not interested in debating the pros and cons of unions, but I will state that any union will only be as strong as the members in it. I found where I was at people were pretty apathetic when it came to unions which put a lot of power right into the hospitals hands.

2. I am covered for hospital stays and doctors visits. What ever tests/procedures/drugs, etc I receive in a hospital, I will not be billed for, I am covered.

3. Universal coverage in Canada does not mean I'm covered for prescriptions, dental visits/procedures, optometrist visits (glasses, contacts, etc), PT, OT, anything deemed "cosmetic" etc. Again with the trend of hospitals hiring people part-time without these benefits, employers save money. You do have the option of obtaining coverage for these things on your own.

4. There really is no free Health Care, it's where some of our taxes go towards.

I haven't seen Michael Moore's "Sicko" so I can't tell you how accurate he is regarding Universal Care in Canada.

fergus51 · Jul 11, 2007

I've worked in BC and Ontario, left Canada about 3 years ago. I didn't have any trouble getting full time work in Ontario. I couldn't in BC, though I worked full time hours and was able to purchase benefits for which I was reimbursed. My vacation time worked out to about a month a year because of how our shifts were clustered. 4 on and 5 off was the standard rotation for 12 hour shift nurses. I actually liked part time because we were paid more than full timers and had a lot more flexibility in our shifts, sort of like being PRN here. Almost every nurse i know took a year off after babies. You could also bank your OT shifts and take them as paid days off later rather than being paid for them which was nice.

BTW, unlike Dusktildawn, we had agency nurses. The use of agency nurses has increased a lot in Canada in recent years. They are even using travel nurses in some places, something they never did when I worked there. They are also increasing the number of full time positions and training positions in some places. I'm amazed at the jobs a few of my friends have landed as new grads that I could never have hoped for when I finished nursing school.

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 11, 2007

i just saw michael moore's movie, "sicko" and it discusses health care in these countries. i would like to know, from nurses in these countries if he is accurate in his portrayal of what it is like in your countries.
specifically, do nurses work a 35 hour week? how many other job classifications do? full time hours in the uk 37.5 but can work part time and have known people work from 16 hours a week upwards
do you get unlimited paid sick time? do employers keep their businesses running when people are out sick? how?depends how long you have worked in the nhs depends on how long sick time you get usually get x amount months full pay and then same x amount months half pay usually max 12 months
do you get a year off after childbirth? can take up to 12 months but some will not be paid but usually tag annual leave on at the end
does a nanny come to help a new mom twice each week for 4 hours per day? no
do you really get a minimum of 5 weeks' vacation? how about holidays?vacation depends on how long you work but is transferrable from nhs hospital to hospital i think after 5 years to have the max which is just over 7 weeks (well my experience i was getting 7 weeks
how do people view nurses? do doctors respect you? does the public look up to you, trust you, think highly of you? same i think in most countries some respect some not. i have never had problems with doctors and respect
in america, we get about 12 weeks off after childbirth, we work a minimum of 40 hours, we get maybe 12 sick days per year, there is no nanny unless we pay for it. plus, we do not get free health care. we pay lots and lots of money for insurance and more for medication, plus we have to help pay the doctor, in the form of co-pays and deductibles. we get maybe 2 or 3 weeks of vacation, unless you are a doctor and then you get a month, or a long-term employee and then you get a couple of weeks more (after 10 years, i think, generally).
so, what i want to know is where should i move to - canada, england, or france? i'm getting my passport ready.
thanks for any insight on what it is like to be a nurse and/or citizen in your country?
are there other countries that have a national health service, free health care for everyone? germany, spain, etc. i'm interested in any country's way of providing health care for its populace.

in the uk we mostly pay national insurance so it isn't free, just free on delivery although there are certain charges like prescription charges if you live in england and working (some working criteria enables you to get free prescriptions). we do have large waiting lists and lots and lots of sometimes impossible targets set by someone who needs to get a job in the real world and expectations i feel are high when currently the uk nhs is going through a crisis both with finance and jobs. i also have no plans to watch the movie

just my opinion

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jul 11, 2007

To clarify something: The 35 hr work week, nanny, and 5 weeks vacation are in France, according to the movie.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Jul 11, 2007

I haven't seen the movie (would like to) but in Finland moms get 9mo maternity leave paid by the gov't. If they would like to take more unpaid time, they can have their job protected for up to three years after a baby. THAT sounds really nice. I am sure they pay hefty taxes but I'd rather my tax money go for that than for bunker-busting bombs.

Pepper The Cat, BSN, RN · Jul 12, 2007

I get 5 weeks vacation, but I have also been at my hospital since 1990. I think we need 12 years experience before getting 5 weeks.

You start with 3 weeks after 1 year. We don't get all our vacation time at one time - we get so many hours per pay cheque. At our hospital, we are limited to taking only 2 weeks during summer, to insure adequate staffing. But I work in self scheduling so I don't know if that is true with other hospitals.

I believe sick time can vary from place to place. At our hospital, you do have unlimited but if you take more than 8 days in one year you get put on a special monitoring program. Also, you don't full sick pay at first - you start at 66% pay for the first year. Then 75% after the second year experience. I think you only get full pay after 3 years. I can 't really remember exactly - its been too long!

We work 40 hour weeks, but get paid for 37.5 - at my hospitial you can take overtime in money or time.

Free health care - but we pay for presciptions, eye exams, eye glasses, dentists etc.

As for doctors respecting us - I think that is just like the USA - it depends on the doctor!

I think the biggest difference that I have noticed in these forums is that Canadian Nurses seem to have better staffing, better pt/nurse ratios and better managers. But then again, my hospital is kind of unique - we have very good relationships with our managers. Hope that helps! We have job openings if you want to move here!

ZippyGBR, BSN, RN · Jul 12, 2007

I just saw Michael Moore's movie, "Sicko" and it discusses health care in these countries. I would like to know, from nurses in these countries if he is accurate in his portrayal of what it is like in your countries.
Specifically, do nurses work a 35 hour week? How many other job classifications do?

the standard working week in the UK is 37.5 / week

the standard working woeek i nthe NHS for everyone except doctors, dentists and directors is now 37.5 or will be by next year (the working week was standardised across all staff groups in the NHS in 2004)

Do you get unlimited paid sick time? Do employers keep their businesses running when people are out sick? How?

not in the UK

NHS sick pay arranges are

1 month full pay and one one half pay for each year of service uptil 5 years when it;s 6 months full and six months half - after that it's just statutory sick pay...

absences of less than 7 days areself certificated absences of more than 7 days have to be supported by a medical certificate

Do you get a year off after childbirth?

potentially yes - can't remember the exact payment arrangements, but again to get the full benefits you have to have several years service

Does a nanny come to help a new mom twice each week for 4 hours per day?

not i nthe UK

Do you really get a minimum of 5 weeks' vacation? How about holidays?

27 (7.5 hour) days of annual leave + 8 public holidays on entry

rising after 5 years service (29 + 8 iirc) and again after 10 (31+8)

it's generally pretty common practice in the the UK regardless of employer to get at least 20 days leave and the 8 public holidays

How do people view nurses?

generally quite positively - even if they don't understand the role ofthe RN - but that appears to be a world wide problems

Do doctors respect you?

generally yes

also given that medicla staff in the NHS are also employees of the same organisation as the nurses there's none of the "we can't upset the doctors incase they don't bring the hospital as much work "

Does the public look up to you, trust you, think highly of you?

generally yes

In America, we get about 12 weeks off after childbirth, we work a minimum of 40 hours, we get maybe 12 sick days per year, there is no nanny unless we pay for it. Plus, we do not get free health care. We pay lots and lots of money for insurance and more for medication, plus we have to help pay the doctor, in the form of co-pays and deductibles. We get maybe 2 or 3 weeks of vacation, unless you are a doctor and then you get a month, or a long-term employee and then you get a couple of weeks more (after 10 years, I think, generally).

although much of the NHS is 'free at the point of delivery' it obviously isn't free becasue of the general taxation income used for funding the NHS as well as the 'national insurance' contributions used to fund the NHS and contribution based social security benefits

the NHS basically breaks down from a paying point of view

Primary care = 'free'

emergency department and Ambulance = 'free'

Acute hospital care = 'free'

general optical care - adults pay for unless covered by low income arrangments or becasue of existing conditions e.g. glaucoma etc...

children and the elderly get free eye tests and a contribution towards the cost of glasses etc if required...

general dental care - if you can find an NHS dentist - small co-pay

Inpatient and hospital discharge prescriptions = 'free'

Outpatient and primary care prescriptions = i think it's 6.85 gbp / item at present

currently the NHS is very much target driven - some are not specifically outcome drivien but the funding they have attracted has doen a lot of outcomes

Emergency department - seen and treated and either admitted or discharged within 4 hours with a 98.5 % target including clinical exceptions ...

Cancer

- first outpatient appointment within 14 days of referral

- diagnosis within 31 days of referral

- treatment within 62 days

Cardiac sounding chest pain

- system targets from thrombolysis within 60 minutes of thecall for help / primary PCI in slightly longer targets - the trust i work for was hitting 70 % + on the target - in part let down by peopel who ring primary care first and add a delay there

- Out patient investigations of suspected cardiac chest pain - 100 % to be seen within 2 weeks

general elective target movign towards an 18 week total patient journey from referral to completion of treatment

Scott33, BSN, EMT-P · Jul 12, 2007

In America, we get about 12 weeks off after childbirth, we work a minimum of 40 hours, we get maybe 12 sick days per year, there is no nanny unless we pay for it. Plus, we do not get free health care. We pay lots and lots of money for insurance and more for medication, plus we have to help pay the doctor, in the form of co-pays and deductibles. We get maybe 2 or 3 weeks of vacation, unless you are a doctor and then you get a month, or a long-term employee and then you get a couple of weeks more (after 10 years, I think, generally)

Your system is clearly not typical nationwide.

I pay nothing for my health insurance or dental. Co-pay is between $10 - $50, I have 20 days vacation + 8 days holiday + 3 personal days per year. Places such as the V.A. are even more generous. Salary is way in excess of UK nurses.

Sick days? yes a little tight. Gone are the days (in the UK) of self-certing for a week here and a week there when I couldn't be bothered going to work. There is always short and long-term disability insurance in the US for those who may think they might need it.

As for the "Sicko" movie, I would recommend all native US-based nurses to go and see it, and keep an open mind. It's laughable the way so many people mock socialised healthcare, without having an educated insight of how it works, let along experienced it first hand. Brainwashing at its best.:trout:

Yes it has its problems... lots of them, but so does the US system.

A marriage of the best of both worlds would be ideal.