We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
Well they say they are open minded. Why doesn't someone listen to the podcast and watch the movie. Then, come back here and tell me how they are both wrong and unscientific. I looked up the felony charges that were brought against Pfizer. That's not opinion, that's a fact.
Per usual, andi78 presents us with the same cast of characters, NONE of whom are experts in vaccines, immunology, or epidemiology, propagating the same tripe as in her other links.
I usually do a quick check of the 'source' before I get to reading or listening. Underground Wellness is a blog and a 'service' provided by a person with Bachelor's degree in kinesthesiology.
Whatever is in the podcast may be interesting, but this individual is grossly underqualified to make alternative suggestions to or criticisms of modern healthcare.
I think I see where we 'diverge' here. I'll assume this person on the podcast meets your requirements for veracity, as you posted the link. He, by far, fails to meet basic standards of veracity for a huge majority of healthcare professionals, including those of us doing evidence-based research.
Not ALL underqualified persons ALWAYS make bogus claims. Some of his claims may fit right into modern healthcare. Sometimes 'outsiders' make such good points that they bring new bits of knowledge into the general understanding.
The trouble with this guy's stuff is it can't be tested, nor could experiments be done to reproduce his claims. This is bedrock important. You won't get in a car that has not been through RIGOROUS safety standards established by years and years of testing. I don't see any difference between the importance of establishing safety in my car and rigorously tested safety and effectiveness of vaccines. When it comes to healthcare, it seems more important than ever that safety and effectiveness be tested exhaustively.
This guy's stuff can't be tested to a degree that makes your car safe enough for you to get into. That's why I won't bother listening to his podcast, after flipping through his blog for a few minutes.
Gooselady, no they aren't stupid or bad criminals. But the dissenters here, in this thread, are supposed to be educated people, and when presented with scientific facts, should have enough maturity to throw in the towel. The stubborn clinging you speak about, and that I have seen displayed here by nurses is scary. The teachers I work with? Many are antivaxx. I try to educate if it comes up (ever try to "educate" a teacher? Good luck) but the fervor about this is, yea, exactly what you describe.
I think it's important enough a question to find some answers to, for the sake of the children and those who aren't able to make their own best decisions. If we claim that the anti-vax stance is dangerous, it's important that we understand CLEARLY what all this 'energy' is behind those who see vaccines as dangerous (along with this or that in modern medicine).
Every one of us is vulnerable in the reality of a vast universe that is unpredictable. Very good people are murdered, and very bad people are sent out of prison to victimize more people. It's dreadfully unfair and impersonal, so we humans feel compelled to MAKE it more fair, more predictable, and more personal -- the part of life we do have control over, our own selves :)
And in an effort to counterbalance the cold impersonal universe, we've made incredible strides forward -- but are under no illusion we can permanently 'fix' reality to be as safe and predictable as we want it to be.
Which makes me think of how SURE the anti-vax crowd is of their convictions. How absolutely sure they are, and I see similarities in how SURE people are of their religious faith. The same look in their eye, the same tone in their rhetoric. And, unfortunately, some of the same "I expect to be persecuted for my beliefs".
This isn't about belief! I don't BELIEVE the sun is a yellow dwarf star on the outer rim of the Milky Way galaxy. I know it is, based upon my trust (and layperson's understanding) in modern astronomy and the aMAZING orbiting telescopes etc etc beaming their information to us.
Belief can't honestly claim to KNOW, because KNOWLEDGE is something that can be shared and easily proven and reproven be each person who encounters it.
Insisting something is TRUE, while being unable to provide legitimate proof, is basically 'faith'. The definition of faith is believing something you don't actually know (for sure).
And I wonder if the huge, defensive reaction to being asked for 'proof' (while providing none that passes basic muster) is because the anti-vaxxer can't honestly convince themselves.
I decided a while back it is was a complete waste of time to continue debating andi as she just. doesn't. get. it. when it comes to what makes a good source etc
We al are continuing to use good sources, anti-vaxxers use whatever happens to suit their agenda, regardless of credentials, etc
And never the twain shall meet.
But cheers to you and others who keep bravely forging on!
Well they say they are open minded. Why doesn't someone listen to the podcast and watch the movie. Then, come back here and tell me how they are both wrong and unscientific. I looked up the felony charges that were brought against Pfizer. That's not opinion, that's a fact.
I'll listen to the podcast, and if I'm impressed by that I'll watch the movie.
You actually bear the burden of proof for the claims made in the podcast and movie, not us. Your claim is that they are true and 'proof' of your position, so it's on you, not us, to do the hard work of 'proving' their truth. We (the generic we) have provided and continue to provide evidence based proof for the usefulness of vaccinations. Now it's your turn.
One other thing; the creepy, capitalistic white collar crimes of Pfizer is NOT proof of a conspiracy, or proof of the lack of effectiveness of their drugs. One does not equal the other. To assume one means the other is the opposite of critical thinking. Critical thinking avoids leaps of logic. You have to make a big leap to get from proof that Pfizer has been naughty (I'm sure they have) MEANS there is a conspiracy covering up the lack of efficacy of their drugs. See where I'm coming from?
If you are wrong, it doesn't MEAN you are a bad, stupid person :) That' is ANOTHER huge leap you don't have to make. It's obviously not true, because as a person, you are quite separate from what you 'believe' or hold dear. It's your IDEAS and OPINIONS that are being criticized. You are NOT your ideas and opinions, they don't define you as a person of value.
I decided a while back it is was a complete waste of time to continue debating andi as she just. doesn't. get. it. when it comes to what makes a good source etc
We al are continuing to use good sources, anti-vaxxers use whatever happens to suit their agenda, regardless of credentials, etc
And never the twain shall meet.
But cheers to you and others who keep bravely forging on!
No more text walls, I promise
IMO it seems very, very important to try very, very hard to engage in discussion where such divergence of 'what is true' is involved. At the grassroots level, that is.
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
Which makes me think of how SURE the anti-vax crowd is of their convictions. How absolutely sure they are, and I see similarities in how SURE people are of their religious faith. The same look in their eye, the same tone in their rhetoric. And, unfortunately, some of the same "I expect to be persecuted for my beliefs"..
If I have the time and inclination, I might tackle this one later.
You may be shocked to learn (then again, perhaps not) that I used to be a part of that far fringe of anti-medical establishment, crunchy granola earth-mother hippie scene before I became a nurse. I still have a lot of those beliefs (such as breastfeeding until middle school and cosleeping until college - joking!). And I still have some remembrance of the thought process of the time. I can relate to "those people" even if I no longer agree with or believe most of what they believe.
Like I said, if I have more time I might tackle your question.
mariebailey, MSN, RN
948 Posts
I will, if you will watch this: The Vaccine War | FRONTLINE | PBS