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Allnurses Debates!

Posted

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience.

This website, all nurses, has TOS which have guidelines to which members need to adhere. Under Posting information, it states "We promote the idea of lively debate. This means you are free to disagree with anyone as long as your criticism is constructive and polite..."

In a nutshell, that's a very good guideline, basically stating, "feel free to disagree, but be polite about it".

There have been instances where debates went outside of these guidelines and those in control reacted appropriately, giving guidance, deleting inappropriate posts, etc.

In addition to the guidelines of the TOS, debating premises in a polite society have other certain specific guidelines.  Guidelines, if not to which are adhered, become as Daisy4RN stated, "a blood bath".

I would enjoy reviewing- and applying- the guidelines of debating in a polite society in this thread. There is a specific systematic approach to the art of debate as there is to any professional procedure we have, as nurses, utilized.

The first step on any debate is to present a premise, which is a statement based on a belief or opinion. Any premise needs to have facts to support it. Documented and/or empirical facts are the strongest. Facts based on feelings or emotions are the weakest, since they are usually not based in logic.

The counter premise requires the same guidelines with opposing facts in which it is to be supported.

Each needs to be presented directly as a statement. Many premises on this website are inferred or presented as questions. The questions are often passive-aggressive in nature and merely infer the premise.

We now need to come up with premise so a counter premise can be formulated.

Emergent, RN

Specializes in ER. Has 29 years experience. 2 Articles; 4,001 Posts

I hate debating. When I state my opinion here, and someone wants to go tit for tat with me, expect me to not answer. I do not entertain that sort of fruitless nonsense. If you quote me and try to provoke an argument, I will not respond. It would be a miracle of God that should be approved by the Vatican if someone had their mind changed by going back and forth on the internet with some self-important, opinionated loudmouth.

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

2 hours ago, Emergent said:

I hate debating. When I state my opinion here, and someone wants to go tit for tat with me, expect me to not answer. I do not entertain that sort of fruitless nonsense. If you quote me and try to provoke an argument, I will not respond. It would be a miracle of God that should be approved by the Vatican if someone had their mind changed by going back and forth on the internet with some self-important, opinionated loudmouth.

What a lovely and entertaining post, Emergent!

It was stated, "I hate debating", followed by a challenge to a debate and ramifications should a debate take place.

The negative phrase "fruitful nonsense" was another challenge for the opposing viewpoint to argue the premise when the fact is debating is actually a method of gaining wisdom and understanding.

Understanding is beneficial both physically and psychologically, in that it increases the comfort level, thereby lowering the blood pressure

Negative phrases- putdowns- are also not allowed in polite societal debates. Putdowns are a method used to insult the other party in the debate, cause them to experience an emotion, detract the debate from its purpose, and is attacking the person and not the premise. 

However, I will accept the negative label of "some self-important opinionated loudmouth" because you have requested of me to be my "allnurses wife" and I want you to be happy.

It is a truism that "Happy wife, happy life".

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

2 hours ago, Davey Do said:

We now need to come up with premise so a counter premise can be formulated.

I came up with a debatable premise which occurred in the real life of a nurse at work and first, some background information:

I had objectively reported and followed the chain of command with notification of infractions in the Code of Conduct, breaches of P&P, and misinterpretations of state laws and statures at Wrongway Regional Medical Center.

I was called onto HR in order to learn "the facility's response to (my) accusations". One of the many debatable premises was a particular statement made early in the conversation made by the HR director, Rita Weasle: "You hate it here".

In other words, Ms. W was inferring the reason for my actions was because I strongly disliked Wrongway and was acting due to my emotions.

The first fallacy in the premise was basing it on another's emotions.  No one can tell another how they feel, as an emotion is an internal process. 

My first response to Ms. Weasle's premise was, "You cannot tell me how I feel". She immediately responded, "Well, that's how I took it" and my rebuttal was, "Well, you took it wrong".

I then backed up my counter premise with facts based on my feelings: "I LIKE being a nurse. I LOVE some of my coworkers and patients. Therefore, I DO NOT, as you say, 'hate it here'".

Ms. Weasel no longer supported her premise, went on to other premises, which I successfully argued against. 

 I won the battles, but some would say that I lost the war because I was terminated anyway.

ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP

Specializes in Med-Surg, NICU. Has 7 years experience. 1 Article; 2,569 Posts

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. But I find people who dislike debating usually fall into 2 categories:

I often find that people who hate debating often hate when people disagree with them,  not so much the debate itself. They often have very unpopular opinions and don't want to get called out for their stances.

Or...

They don't like confrontation. Understandable. But as a minority,  I often don't have the luxury of avoiding all confrontation at times.

Daisy4RN

Daisy4RN

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg. Has 20 years experience. 1 Article; 2,081 Posts

“John McNichols said something along the lines of "Artists have an important role in any society and that's to show us alternative perspectives to the accepted mainstream ways in which we think... for this reason we afford the artist latitude in their irreverent perspectives”

Important yes, but unfortunately some people: don’t like, can’t accept, can’t understand, can’t deal/cope with the fact that different perspectives other than the “accepted mainstream ways in which we think” may also have some truth and merit. IMO they either are so uncomfortable leaving their mindset ( ie “you can’t handle the truth”), or they just want/like to argue. 
 

And yes, I borrowed your quote✌️

Edited by Daisy4RN

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

14 minutes ago, ThePrincessBride said:

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. But I find people who dislike debating usually fall into 2 categories:

I often find that people who hate debating often hate when people disagree with them,  not so much the debate itself. They often have very unpopular opinions and don't want to get called out for their stances.

Or...

They don't like confrontation. Understandable. But as a minority,  I often don't have the luxury of avoiding all confrontation at times.

Ah! A post fraught with categorizing, solid perspectives, and an empathy play. Good job, ThePrincessBride!

Peter Benchley said of the two types of people, "There are two types of people: Those who believe there are two types of people, and those who do not".

Excuse me. I have more to say, but my tablet is acting out, so I'm going to have to do some behavior mod on it and ignore its behavior for a while.

Daisy4RN

Daisy4RN

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg. Has 20 years experience. 1 Article; 2,081 Posts

19 minutes ago, ThePrincessBride said:

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. But I find people who dislike debating usually fall into 2 categories:

I often find that people who hate debating often hate when people disagree with them,  not so much the debate itself. They often have very unpopular opinions and don't want to get called out for their stances.

Or...

They don't like confrontation. Understandable. But as a minority,  I often don't have the luxury of avoiding all confrontation at times.

Personally speaking I hate debating on this site (not in general) because some people are notorious for the attack on the person and/or the person’s ability as a nurse/HCP. I have seen this happen to many posters and have experienced both multiple times with the most recent only a few days ago. This tells me that the person has zero interest in having a real debate and/or just wants to be right and shut down the conversation; if that is not their intention they should stop. 
(and just for the record I am not speaking of you) 

But I do agree that some people just don’t like confrontation. Their choice. 

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

Yeah, Daisy.

I've had my can of Urine & H 3 COOH and am about through for today. As Walter Sobchak said in "The Big Lebowski", and I paraphrase,

"Fornicate it, Dude. Let's go do some art".

(My medical nurse wife Belinda calls that movie "The Big Babinski". She's such a nurse!)

ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP

Specializes in Med-Surg, NICU. Has 7 years experience. 1 Article; 2,569 Posts

12 minutes ago, Daisy4RN said:

Personally speaking I hate debating on this site (not in general) because some people are notorious for the attack on the person and/or the person’s ability as a nurse/HCP. I have seen this happen to many posters and have experienced both multiple times with the most recent only a few days ago. This tells me that the person has zero interest in having a real debate and/or just wants to be right and shut down the conversation; if that is not their intention they should stop. 
(and just for the record I am not speaking of you) 

But I do agree that some people just don’t like confrontation. Their choice. 

Yeah...I have been here for 12 years (OMG), and I have definitely seen it and (I admit earlier on) to have participated in it. It definitely is frustrating and I can see why people wouldn't want to put up with it.

I used to participate in this site but over the years, it had definitely become more toxic and very unwelcoming and some of the opinions here have been downright hostile to Black nurses.

So believe me when I say that I get it.

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

"... males are still the minority in the nursing workforce."
-statisticstats.com

"Gender bias is the most common problem of male nurses"
-quora.com

Davey Do

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years). Has 43 years experience. 1 Article; 10,006 Posts

6 hours ago, Davey Do said:

Any premise needs to have facts to support it. Documented and/or empirical facts are the strongest. Facts based on feelings or emotions are the weakest, since they are usually not based in logic.

Premises without supporting evidence are merely perspectives, opinions.

We all know what opinions are like, and everybody has one.

When an unsupported premise is given, the presenter of the premise often assumes it should be accepted at face value merely because they believe it to be true.

As was pointed out, if that belief is challenged, the presenter often reacts in a negative manner, as though they, and not just their premise, were attacked.

It is difficult to have a "lively debate" with those who wear their hearts on their sleeves, or those who cannot separate their emotions from their beliefs.

Premise: Some have used this emotional involvement to their advantage as a power play to drive home their point.

Supporting evidence: One member in a thread not too long ago, first questioned the others' premise with whether they were functioning on this level of reality. This was a putdown which is not an acceptable tact in a polite societal debate. It is rude and condescending.

My response to him was similar to that and I refused to debate the issue any further. Refusing to feed the fire ends the debate. If another does not play by the rules, here ends the discourse.

My ending the debate was a powerplay, in that "If you don't play by the rules, I'm taking my ball and going home".

However, many cannot let go of the belief that they are right and others are wrong and must prove themselves. It is as if they don't prove themselves and receive external validation, they feel worthless.