Agism in nursing???? (furious rant potential)

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

I gave up just short of $1,000 in pay in order to attend an internship fair at Baylor Medical Center in Dallas in October. I dressed up, polished up my resume, made a bunch of copies. I shook hands, smiled, made eye contact, got a lot of encouragement, all the managers I spoke with said they were interested in me. Looked me right in the eye when they said it too.

Let's look at what I have (had) to offer:

By the time the internships start, I'll have a solid year of hospital experience. I volunteer at a community clinic, and I am taking Spanish in order to increase my ability to care for my Spanish-only patients.

I have an exceptionally good evaluation from my first supervisor, with complimentary remarks. I also have written praises from patients, maybe 15 or so that I can actually lay my hands on. Two supervisors and a handful of experienced RN coworkers have enthusiastically agreed to serve as references for me.

I graduated with a 4.0 in nursing from a college that is one of the 7 identified by the ANA for excellence in nursing education.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's from my prenursing days. I am a dually licensed professional (in psychotherapy). I graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the bachelor's program, which was at a well known and well thought-of nearby state university.

Interestingly, I didn't get so much as an interview or the courtesy of a letter saying they weren't interested.

Gee, could it be because I'm not a 25 year old fresh out of school?

As it happens, I'm 52. My friend who went with me to the fair is 48, and they didn't bother giving her the time of day when it was all over with either. We both look pretty good for our ages. Not that that should matter.

I don't have a criminal record, never been arrested, never have done anything criminal that would have gotten me arrested!

Anybody else experiencing age-ism in nursing? Is there anybody out there who has successfully sued over it? I'm contemplating legal action and would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences, especially if you are in the Dallas area and know of an attorney adept and interested.....

Thanks. :angryfire

[chadash]

Found this study on Nurse Aide Turnover from the Florida department of Elder affairs. In their findings they stated that job "stayers" were more likely OLDER African American women....while leaver's were younger Caucasian women and men....

To me, from this finding, I would think age would be an asset in stability on the job. It makes no sense to me that age should be a detriment to employment....

[Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN]

Wow, Christine. Congrats on your job!

I have five years of inpt hospice experience, and would love to do hospice nursing again. However, I've been applying at the two local hospices in my area for four years, without a bite.

[scribblerpnp]

How about when you appear "too young?" This has happened to me. I live in a small town, so this is how I found out. Just recently I interviewed for a nurse practitioner job and lost out to someone who had THE EXACT SAME YEARS OF EXPERIENCE (as a nurse and less as an NP). Plus, (and this is the part that really burns me) the position was for a pediatric office and the NP they hired was a new grad Family Nurse Practitioner with no peds nursing experience. She worked adult med-surg prior to being a NP. I have three years experince as a Pediatric Nurse Practitioner, plus worked for two years as a floor nurse in a top 10 pediatric hospital! A friend of mine recently got a job as an office nurse at the same office I'm speaking of and overheard them talking to the NP and laughing about "one of the applicants who looked like she should be a patient, not a care provider." The person they hired has about 20 years on me. But her nursing experience is the same if not less than mine! And salary wasn't a factor either. They told me they would only offer a certain amount, and I said it was acceptable.

Apparently in nursing the agism goes both ways.

[chadash]

Well, I think I found a solution.Since I can't get a CNA job with years of experience, I applied for a cleaning job in a hospital. I just don't have any other skills, so this is better than being unemployed. I have cleaning experience, and it is good "clean" work, so wish me luck!

[cannoli]

Well, I think I found a solution.Since I can't get a CNA job with years of experience, I applied for a cleaning job in a hospital. I just don't have any other skills, so this is better than being unemployed. I have cleaning experience, and it is good "clean" work, so wish me luck!

Good luck!

[GeorgiaBoy61]

Hello:

Chris at Lucas RN, my sympathies on your plight. Some good posts above but I'll throw in my observations too, since I am also a male RN in my 40s, just starting off in this new RN career after doing something else for many years.

Ageism is a fact of life in our society, even for people as young as 40. In the biomedical research and pharmaceutical industries, where I once worked, employers such as Abbott Labs routinely pass over mid-career people with excellent qualifications. Why? Because you are 'over-qualified' or whatever. No one will say it to your face, of course. What it is really about in my view is money and the ability to have compliant workers who follow orders without asking questions. By the time someone is middle-aged, they've generally learned that all that glitters is not gold, and thus are quick to make waves when someone attempts to put one over on them. We (usually) also cost more than recent graduates, and have potentially higher medical permiums - big issues for today's beancounters. Abbott used - at least when I was there - a core of permanent people surrounded by an ever-chainging herd of overworked, underpaid contractors. "Turn em and burn 'em" - work the younger worker hard, let them burn out and then replace them when they move on. Cynical - but that's how it worked. Abbott liked younger people, too, because their training was brand-new and up-to-date. So - if you are mid-career, the moral of the story is to stay fresh and current.

After getting axed at Abbott in 2001, I investigated a lot of careers before choosing nursing. A great many career tracks are closed to people over age 35 simply because of outdated and/or illogical rules and regulations. That includes numerous agencies of the federal, state and local governments. They insist that none of the rest of us get to practice age discrimination, but they do it all the time. Police and fire departments often exclude new hires over age 35, as do the military (that's now changing but very slowly), the FBI, CIA, DHS, Border Patrol and others. In my case, I couldn't become a paramedic because I'm over 35, in spite of my RN and being able to pick and carry a 220 lb. person in a fireman's carry (I'm in good shape). None of that matters, only age. can't join unless you can start by age 35, since you have to be able to retire with 20 years service.

Ditto FBI, CIA, border patrol agents, etc. A criminal waste of people still in their prime, if you ask me. It ought to be all about standards - can you do the job - and not arbitrary criteria such as age.

Other occuaptions are affected by it. I have a friend who is a professor of history and excellent at what he does. he has had to watch younger, less qualfied candidates get tenure-track jobs while he is passed over. Why? he is in his 50s and a white male.

I've never encountered ageism in nursing except for one occasion, when I had some surgery done. The specific condition I had corrected is one that affects all age groups, but I felt scrutinized because I am not 23. I had to wrok extra hard to prove myself fit for duty once I was better. No fair - but that's life. Nursing is physically demanding, no doubt.

Being an RN is great in the sense that the market favors you. if you are getting mistreated, simply move on down the line. I know of at least one employer who would love to have you - the military. They take medical personnel includings RNs - above age 40, one of the few smart things our government has done vis-a-vis age and the services. At 52, you'll have to waive retirement, but you might be able to get in still. If you want civilian employment, I'm sure you can find something in one of the states hurting for RNs - Florida, AZ, CA, etc. They'd love to see you, I'll bet!

Last thought: One of the best RNs I know is a guy in his late 50s. All of his patients love him as do his coworkers. Hang in there!

PS - it stinks that internships are closed to midlife people who are starting a new caeer track.... that ain't right either.

all the best -

[aviator411, RN]

Very well-written GB61,

It also often has to do with competence and self-confidence of the management. Weak managers tend to be very insecure about having subordinates with more experience or ability than they do. They have an inordinate need to be surrounded by newbies who are easily snowed and pushed around and who will look up to them.

My wife has been a neonatal RN ever since the unit was established here 30 years ago. On her 30th anniversary with the unit a couple weeks ago, her HN didn't even acknowledge that she existed. She goes out of her way to make the environment as unfriendly and uninviting as possible for those who helpled establish the unit 30 years ago with the obvious agenda of getting rid of those who know more about the business than she does; she took the HN position just a few years ago when the very first HN retired. Her long-term predecessor suffered no such insecurity and welcomed those with more experience and utilized their knowledge and experience as the valuable resources they are. The new HN loves to be surrounded by new grads who have had little opportunity to get to know the neonatal business and many of whom have little interest in learning it.

I tell my wife, "If you went into nursing to be liked and appreciated and treated fairly, you did it for the wrong reasons"! It is, after all, supposed to be about the PATIENTS. My wife loves the clinical work and the patients but it is very frustrating for her to see them receive less than optimal care because of inept managment.

I'm preparing to enter nursing as a second career at age 62. My wife thinks I'm crazy. She's never been wrong about anything yet!

[RNBSN2DFW]

I REEEeeeally hate hearing this stuff. I am a new graduate/older student. Second degree, second career after retiring from the military. I also have a pretty impressive resume. The last thing I want to hear is that my age will be a factor. So far I love the field and know that I've made the correct choice in choosing nursing - however - I also chose nursing because of the 'supposed' nursing shortage and the fact I thought my age wouldn't make a difference....Now I'm hearing it will!!!:angryfire

[RNBSN2DFW]

I REEEeeeally hate hearing this stuff. I'[EVIL][/EVIL]m a new graduate/older student. Second degree, second career after retiring from the military. I also have a pretty impressive resume. The last thing I want to hear is that my age will be a factor. So far I love the field and know that I've made the correct choice in choosing nursing - however - I also chose nursing because of the 'supposed' nursing shortage and the fact I thought my age wouldn't make a difference....Now I'm hearing it will!!!:angryfire

[WDWpixieRN, RN]

I'm preparing to enter nursing as a second career at age 62. My wife thinks I'm crazy.

As an "older" person myself, getting ready to start nursing school in August, I applaud you!! :yelclap: Best wishes!!

But as for your wife's thinking, that, too, is part of her "job"....we all think our husbands are crazy!! :roll

[SCGreywolf]

To all the folks out there that are worried about age discrimination.

I am 60 years old, traveling for a living, work ICU. I have my MSN AND an MBA. I have been turned down for assignments after the interview....and I have turned THEM down....simply because I wasn't a good fit to their needs. Usually, it was because I was overqualified and they were afraid I would intimidate the young nurses on the unit (OBTW, I'm male). Don't blame it on the age....step back and look at it from the employer's side....do you fit their unit? would your personality be abrasive to their charge nurse (or them)? could you withstand the doctors and their personalities?

I do not want to sound like 'Pollyanna' and declare there is no discrimination. Because there IS discrimination based on age...just as there is discrimination based on skin color, sex and (if you are in the southeast) religion...You better be a Baptist, boy!! (I actually had that comment made to me by a nurse manager). Thing is...do you REALLY want to work for people that have this bias but hire you anyway? I believe that life with them would be miserable. Plus you have the usual problem>>>PROVE that they discriminated!!! I don't care if its age related, sex related etc....TRY to PROVE it!! Dang near impossible. The only thing I can say is that in 23 years as an RN, I have been without a job approximately 2 months total. And I never worked for an employer longer than 5 years. I have never had anyone turn me down because of age.....I did lose one assignment because they wanted to float me to L & D and they didn't think a male should be in there....that was ok 'cause I didn't WANT to go there.

18 days and countin'...and Mama's waitin' at the door

the wolf

[HARRN2b]

I actually got my first taste of age discrimination when I was 30 and applied for a sales position with a well known company, that everyone here would know. I went on to work for their competitor for 10 years. However, they had the attitude "churn them and burn them". My boss with 15 years experience and a wonderful manager, was let go. He was replaced with, you guessed it, someone around 25. Nursing is a second career for me, and I sure hope not to encounter ageism. My God, in this society is one only good for about 10 years, and after that throw them out in the pasture!