Agism in nursing???? (furious rant potential)

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

I gave up just short of $1,000 in pay in order to attend an internship fair at Baylor Medical Center in Dallas in October. I dressed up, polished up my resume, made a bunch of copies. I shook hands, smiled, made eye contact, got a lot of encouragement, all the managers I spoke with said they were interested in me. Looked me right in the eye when they said it too.

Let's look at what I have (had) to offer:

By the time the internships start, I'll have a solid year of hospital experience. I volunteer at a community clinic, and I am taking Spanish in order to increase my ability to care for my Spanish-only patients.

I have an exceptionally good evaluation from my first supervisor, with complimentary remarks. I also have written praises from patients, maybe 15 or so that I can actually lay my hands on. Two supervisors and a handful of experienced RN coworkers have enthusiastically agreed to serve as references for me.

I graduated with a 4.0 in nursing from a college that is one of the 7 identified by the ANA for excellence in nursing education.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's from my prenursing days. I am a dually licensed professional (in psychotherapy). I graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the bachelor's program, which was at a well known and well thought-of nearby state university.

Interestingly, I didn't get so much as an interview or the courtesy of a letter saying they weren't interested.

Gee, could it be because I'm not a 25 year old fresh out of school?

As it happens, I'm 52. My friend who went with me to the fair is 48, and they didn't bother giving her the time of day when it was all over with either. We both look pretty good for our ages. Not that that should matter.

I don't have a criminal record, never been arrested, never have done anything criminal that would have gotten me arrested!

Anybody else experiencing age-ism in nursing? Is there anybody out there who has successfully sued over it? I'm contemplating legal action and would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences, especially if you are in the Dallas area and know of an attorney adept and interested.....

Thanks. :angryfire

[gauge14iv, MSN, APRN, NP]

Can anyone explain this one?

I have >30 years experience in OB, both low and high risk, level II nursery, and postpartum. I applied for a job as an OB telephone triage/case manager. The qualifications listed were: at least 2 years experience, preferably in high risk OB. History of telephone triage (OB would be an asset) I was told a few days later that they were interviewing someone who was better qualified. The ad remains on their web site and in their newspaper ads, and job line. I keep wondering "Just how old is this person?"

Are you so sure you are the only person so qualified for the position? While you may be VERY qualified, it is doubtful you are the ONLY one who is qualified. Maybe the onther person is a Nurse Midwife with a high risk triage background. Maybe the other person has worked in the insurance industry before (the more likely case) or may even be a current employee but they had to post the position. It could be any number of scenarios.

Don't sell yourself short based on what you make up about a particular situation that you dont know every detail about! You have great experience, and just because one place you interview says you arent for them does not mean - nor should it be interpreted as - an ageist/sexist/racist agenda.

Afterall - we make it alllllllllll up when we don't know all the details, and we typically make up the worst case scenario. What do we immediately think when we don't hear from the spouse or kid who isn't home 2 hours after they said they would be? We start calling the cell phone - Im sure some of us have gone so far as to call local hospitals! It's human nature to think of the worst first.

[judy ann]

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

This job was listed for the first time >5 weeks ago.

In addition to my nursing experience, I am a certified medical biller and coder, and am certified in inpatient obstetrics and fetal monitoring. My telephone triage experience includes 3 years high risk ob and care management.

I just cheked the website. It is still listed, and was asdvertised this AM in the newspaper. It is a part time positon, 2-9 hour shifts a week. I'm surprised that they are not able to fill this position if, in fact they do have a better qualified applicant. All I ask is honesty. :angryfire

[chadash]

I wish you well!

[aimeeinorbit]

Perhaps the potential employers thought you were overqualified for the position they had.

bingo

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

If the OP is still following this thread, I'd be curious to hear how things have worked out since.

As I noted earlier, I don't believe I have personally experienced discrimination based on my age or my gender since I've been in nursing, but if others say they have, I'm in no position to doubt them. I'm a natural optimist, but for all our 21st century enlightenment, I'm not optimistic enough to think discrimination no longer occurs.

[chris_at_lucas_RN, RN]

If the OP is still following this thread, I'd be curious to hear how things have worked out since.

As I noted earlier, I don't believe I have personally experienced discrimination based on my age or my gender since I've been in nursing, but if others say they have, I'm in no position to doubt them. I'm a natural optimist, but for all our 21st century enlightenment, I'm not optimistic enough to think discrimination no longer occurs.

The OP is indeed still here, but not monitoring the thread, except to read the posts that get sent (not all of them do!).

What happened. Well, lots. I found out that the ideals I held for nursing are not shared by very many. I found that the nurses who hire are often focused on the bottom dollar (translates into high patient to nurse ratios, the worst I had was a 13 bed unit and only me, no aide, no LVN, no clerk, just me, and a frequent reassurance that if someone coded, ICU was right across the hall!). I found a lot of personality disorders when I interviewed: can you imagine being bawled out by someone who has offered you a job because she wasn't the only one you were interviewing with?

And we moved to a smaller town, where the trip to Dallas to the job I had when I first posted this thread was just almost too far, I lost my weekend diff because I was gone two weekends, even though I got permission first. When I said I needed to go PRN (I'd found the great job described above :chuckle ), and gave them a specific date including the words "this means my last weekend doubles weekend will be...." and the date, they not only put me down for a weekday first shift I never agreed to (couldn't was working above great job's orientation), but when I called about that I learned I was scheduled for two more weekends! This was my supervisor, the one I'd given the verbal notice to, and he had written it on his hand "so I won't forget." I had followed that verbal up with an email, copied to HR. His response was "HR told me your last day would be next week."

When I complained that no one had shared that with me, he became angry and said "we don't need you, don't come back."

For all I know I have a nice fat black mark at Group One.

I had pretty well decided just to leave nursing, but for the love of some very kind nurse friends, some I only know from this board.

I just started at a hospice, running a pair of disastrous local offices, and I'll be doing more management than hands on nursing, but I can do that do if I want to, I'll be the boss by the end of the week.

Unless something else bizarre happens.

As to the discrimination? Let them have their cake, as it were. Someone more interested in contention will get them, they'll be publicly embarassed (the great Baptist hospitals caught doing not very ethical things!), and if there's a class action suit, I'll happily join in. I'm probably the only one who actually lost a load of moolah just trying to work there.

Thanks for asking....

And yes, not only does discrimination rage in nursing, but a whole lot of other sick issues, and it isn't the patients.

Still glad I'm a nurse. I guess we can each make our difference in our own corner of the world, right?

[cardsRN]

Hi there,

I like your response...no one stays perfect forever is the truth.

If I may take this opportunity to unload something that didn't sit right with me that a patient said not too long ago.

First though, even though I may be mistaken for much younger at times, (not really certain why though) I am 40 years old, tall, slim and with light brown hair. MY new department does have quite a bit of new nurses and sure, many of them are slim, (youth), midwestern and sure do look like the girls next door.

I went in to a patient's room to answer her light and she said, "oh my god, everyone here is young, slim and pretty, they must only hire that here!" It was not said in a complimentary tone at all. My reply was just a gentle, "oh, what a coincidnece, thank you though, I am 40".

It had bothered me, possibly because I had noticed myself that nearly the whole crew was so young and I had grown accustomed to working with nurses who not new grads or under 25! Yet, this department had less than a handful of nurses over 30 and even less with more than 5 years exp, it seemed that it also had at least 4 nurses who were new grads! (I am not longer at this unit though, I resigned until I complete my degree, I notice a great, great difference being a CNA or PCT under a nurse with >5 years exp and one who is a new grad, let alone one who is barely over 20-on the "whole" though and a terrible blanket statement, no thanks!!)

Gen-

first sorry if i am saying what someone else already said- haven't read the entire thread...

gen- the floor i am on right now has a similar pattern with the appearance of staff, from the surface it does look suspicious. like there may be some age/weight/attractiveness discrimination going on. but under the surface is a unit with a very high burn-out rate... our attrition is unbelievable. the unit is VERY dependent on new grads. very few nurses stay for more than 2 years so our staff has a youthful appearance. i remember when i started looking for the first nursing job out of school and people told me to be wary of units with high turnover. the problem is that it is very hard to identify whether a floor is that way until you've worked there. now i think i have a clue- if all you see are very young faces, run the other way. there is something about that floor that no one can bear for long. no offense meant to new grads (hey, we were all there once) but a unit needs a mix of new and more experienced staff to thrive and avoid burning ppl out.

to the OP- it may just be the size of the places you applied to that is the problem. i didn't get the interview for my current job without calling and calling badgering the HR person for about 1 month. they just don't get back to you. and there is no such thing as a courtesy email/call/letter if they're not interested...

my

[ortess1971]

I feel bad for all that have this problem, but I also think that experience does have a major factor in some job postings. I work in the OR and have for almost 30 years so my age is up there, 53 to be exact, and have interviewed over the past few years for jobs and have no problem getting the job because of my experience. They just "drool" when I mention my age and the fact I can run circles around their younger staff, I like to work! I do think there is a age discrimination factor when it comes to certain jobs or program and shouldn't be tolerated. I have always had an opinion of judging one on their enthusiasm and willing to do the job rather on how they look or how old they look. I have seen some nurses who look old for their age and young for their age. When applications don't ask for their birthdates the facilities have to rely solely on work experience and education. Apearences do have a major impact on what people think about you, so if you "look" older then they will assume that. Unfortunately this happens all the time and I guess there isn't much one can do unless they make it quite obvious you are not being considered because of your age, then there is a problem. Good luck!

The OR is cool like that-age and experience are valued...The docs love the ones who have "been there, done that" because they know what they need. I am 35 and am one of the youngest people working there!

[chris_at_lucas_RN, RN]

first sorry if i am saying what someone else already said- haven't read the entire thread...

gen- the floor i am on right now has a similar pattern with the appearance of staff, from the surface it does look suspicious. like there may be some age/weight/attractiveness discrimination going on. but under the surface is a unit with a very high burn-out rate... our attrition is unbelievable. the unit is VERY dependent on new grads. very few nurses stay for more than 2 years so our staff has a youthful appearance. i remember when i started looking for the first nursing job out of school and people told me to be wary of units with high turnover. the problem is that it is very hard to identify whether a floor is that way until you've worked there. now i think i have a clue- if all you see are very young faces, run the other way. there is something about that floor that no one can bear for long. no offense meant to new grads (hey, we were all there once) but a unit needs a mix of new and more experienced staff to thrive and avoid burning ppl out.

to the OP- it may just be the size of the places you applied to that is the problem. i didn't get the interview for my current job without calling and calling badgering the HR person for about 1 month. they just don't get back to you. and there is no such thing as a courtesy email/call/letter if they're not interested...

my

Actually, the HR people were almost embarassed because the unit managers were so unresponsive. (In contrast to Presby Dallas where they really do need to clean HR house, and Medical City where they are responsive but not too bright-well intentioned, though). My current situation has no HR. Too small. Works for me! In an odd chain of events, I am now the administrator over two centers for a hospice.

All I can say is, God works in mysterious ways! (Stay tuned! Always something exciting happening at the House of Christine! LOL)

[gauge14iv, MSN, APRN, NP]

I guess I dont understand why you all just dont call the unit you want to work in and fax a resume directly to the UM in addition to calling HR. That's what has always gotten me the job I wanted. If I had waited for HR at anyplace to call me, I would been rotting in a hole in the ground somewhere!

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Still glad I'm a nurse. I guess we can each make our difference in our own corner of the world, right?

Wow. Hospice Administrator. I'm not sure which of those words is scarier to me, but I have little doubt that you will make a real difference, to staff and patients alike. After all, you've had an excellent course in what not to do. Best of luck.

[chadash]

I have been thinking about it, and I wonder if I havent been using agism as an excuse. I might just not be really that good at what I do.

I guess there is just a time to give up on it.

Just because I really love being a CNA, doesn't mean I am good at it.

But, that said, I do think agism does happen. You have the credentials, stand up for yourselves!:balloons: