A Sticky Wicket

Nurses General Nursing

Updated:   Published

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Last night, I got into a disagreement with my best buddy's D-I-Ls. They wanted to use copies of the armbands of deceased patients, and display them publicly, as evidence against a hospital's wrongdoing. The copies were obtained by someone in their group who worked in medical records at the wrongdoing hospital.

I strongly encouraged them to familiarize themselves with HIPAA and explained it was a legal act to protect patients' confidentiality. One of the young ladies wryly said to me, "Get out of the system!"

I explained to her that I will bend the rules- even break the law- if it is the means to a greater end. I said that they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they used this information in their quest. The focus would not be on the wrongdoings of the hospital, but their wrongdoings in stealing patient information and breaching patient confidentiality.

The other D-I-L argued patient confidentiality didn't apply because the people were dead, I disagreed and again strongly encouraged them to gather more data before entering into this endeavor with great temerity.

The two held fast to their beliefs, so I gave them an ultimatum: Either they gain more knowledge before acting, come clean with their actions, or I would report them to the proper authorities.

What do you think about this situation?

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.

So where were they going to “publicly display” these armbands, social media? I also agree that this is disrespectful to the deceased (unless they were given permission by the deceased). Not only that but how do they even know there was foul play involved. If they are family/friends there are certainly avenues to go down to right this supposed wrong, if they are not they probably have no clue about whether or not these patient’s care was so inappropriate that it led to their death. What did they hope to accomplish? The person who stole the info from medical records is taking a big chance and maybe doesn’t even know what they are talking about. I agree this is a huge mistake on their part for many reasons!

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.
5 hours ago, Davey Do said:

Which was more important? How others felt about me or standing up for principles?

I think that principals are very important and I also like to stand up for what I believe in no matter who likes it or not. The problem comes when people have different principles and either can’t discuss them logically/realistically or can’t figure out what to do with them. I think the people in your story are too focused on doing what they feel is right but aren’t looking at the situation realistically, they think they hold the moral high ground but don’t know what to do with it, and also how do they even know that they are correct in their assumptions. And to go ahead and put someone else’s private info out there is just reckless IMO. (My opinion is of course based on info provided, there is probably more to the story). 

Specializes in Occupational Health Nursing.

What are the Wrongdoings of the hospital? If they think there has been negligence on part of the facility, posting the armband of the deceased patients is not the answer, what will get resolved by posting information that should not be publicly posted in the first place? Agree with the comment here, it's very disrespectful.

Specializes in Hospice, LPN.

It doesn't sound like any of them are firing on a full set of pistons. If this is the end result of their investigation- if you could call it that- can we know if any of the information they say they have is based in reality at all? Or did they run from point A to point 47 and decide to plow forward with this ridiculous and offensive plan? They sound like a bunch of knuckleheads. There is such a thing as honoring the dead. We can't speak to what they would want so if they want to go forward they need to leave these patients out of it. Not to mention their families - who I'm assuming are not a part of this and would be devastated to have this kind of thing, whatever it is, be drawn out in public. At this point, since you are now a part of this conversation you have no choice but to report it. ?

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).
13 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:

I think the people in your story are too focused on doing what they feel is right but aren’t looking at the situation realistically, they think they hold the moral high ground but don’t know what to do with it, and also how do they even know that they are correct in their assumptions.

"Hold the moral high ground and don't know what to do with it."

That insightfully stated phrase needed to be repeated. Many believe if their opinion or perspective or cause or whatever is the RIGHT one, they feel and believe they are justified to go outside of the bounds of appropriate behavior or the laws to drive home their point and/or bring the culprit to justice.

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).
6 hours ago, PoodleBreath said:

It doesn't sound like any of them are firing on a full set of pistons.

Great analogy, PoodleBreath. Or is it a metaphor? Like the Aztecs and Incas, I get those two mixed up.

Yes. These individuals seem to have some power yet are crippled in "gettin' thar".

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).
14 hours ago, John2018 said:

What are the Wrongdoings of the hospital?

 

21 hours ago, Davey Do said:

Very good question, lonfonflo, and I wish I could answer it.

 

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).
15 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:

So where were they going to “publicly display” these armbands, social media?

When shown theses armband copies, I went internally ballistic. It was like someone had shown me something so outrageously absurd and offensive that I wanted to point my finger at them, yell obscenities, and be the judge, jury, and executioner who wanted their heads.

However, when emotions are high in any given situation, to add fuel to the fire is destructive. I took the tact of logically attempting to explain to them that this was wrong. I said something along the lines of "In 1994 a legal rule was enacted that protected the confidential rights of patients called HIPAA..."

Citing a fact took the focus off of me, and what I believed, and avoided the passion of the moment in order for logic to take its place. Throwing in the name and the date was done to let them know that I knew something of what I was talking about. 

 

22 hours ago, Davey Do said:

After my statement about contacting the proper authorities, my presence in the social gathering ended rather abruptly.

 

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.
8 hours ago, Davey Do said:

"Hold the moral high ground and don't know what to do with it."

That insightfully stated phrase needed to be repeated. Many believe if their opinion or perspective or cause or whatever is the RIGHT one, they feel and believe they are justified to go outside of the bounds of appropriate behavior or the laws to drive home their point and/or bring the culprit to justice.

Exactly, and usually when they go “out of bounds” innocent people get hurt in the process. Add to that they fail to see their hypocrisy.

 

7 hours ago, Davey Do said:

When shown theses armband copies, I went internally ballistic. It was like someone had shown me something so outrageously absurd and offensive that I wanted to point my finger at them, yell obscenities, and be the judge, jury, and executioner who wanted their heads.

However, when emotions are high in any given situation, to add fuel to the fire is destructive. I took the tact of logically attempting to explain to them that this was wrong. I said something along the lines of "In 1994 a legal rule was enacted that protected the confidential rights of patients called HIPAA..."

Citing a fact took the focus off of me, and what I believed, and avoided the passion of the moment in order for logic to take its place. Throwing in the name and the date was done to let them know that I knew something of what I was talking about. 

 

 

Yikes! They were showing the copies to people at the party/gathering? 
I see why you were so outraged but I think you handled it well and hopefully they will think about it before they do something stupid.

Being a private person I would be very upset if someone was doing this with my info after I died and I would haunt them with chains rattling, scary moans and everything!

I wrote out an answer but erased and have a question instead. Are these two fine specimens of humanity actually employed by or affiliated with a covered entity?

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).
12 hours ago, JKL33 said:

Are these two fine specimens of humanity actually employed by or affiliated with a covered entity?

 

Sorry, JKL, I don't know for sure, but I sensed one of the D-I-Ls did. As I previously said,

 

On 3/1/2022 at 10:25 AM, Davey Do said:

After my statement about contacting the proper authorities, my presence in the social gathering ended rather abruptly.

 

Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.

The immediate issues I have that come to light

- The person obtainining the patients identifying details through their job could be in deep ***. They would need to be able to show a clear reason or permission from the patients family to access those records. 

- A simple Google search suggests that HIPAA protects patients information for up to 50 years after their death. Unless a family member eg EPOA gives permission they have no show

I get the idea of wanting to do some sort of visual display or the like to hold a hospital accountable, but there are many ways that you can do that without putting your employment at risk and violating a patients privacy. 

In hospice I've looked after people who have been well known or the family member of someone who is well known. Even 10 years later I'm still not OK with discussing those cases. Your mates DILs are totally out of line with this

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