I am taking online A&P II at a community college. The course includes a lab component, though lab is not a requirement for the nursing program to which I have been admitted. I am not squeamish (used to be an EMT), nor do I oppose human cadaver dissection. I do, however, object to animal dissection for ethical reasons. I contacted my professor to request an alternative to the cow eye and heart dissection activities citing my ethical objection to animal dissection, and the fact that I haven't eaten or worn animals for over two decades. I expressed my willingness to engage in an alternate activity, such as an interactive, multimedia software program (we already utilize such software to conduct experiments on virtual lab animals). My request was denied. I was informed that if I chose not to do the dissections, I would be penalized with a deduction in points.
In response to my e-mail asking my professor to reconsider, I received the following reply (excerpt):
Would you tell someone who is badly mangled in a auto accident and bleeding to death that you cannot work on them because you are a vegetarian? I would hope not. If so, then you should choose another career.
My professor also called my ethical opposition to animal dissection into question with the following statement:
I understand being a vegetarian but this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens.
I found his message to be inappropriate, offensive, and ridiculous. I would like to obtain some outside perspective and would appreciate any comments you may have about this situation. Thanks.
Oh wow, I can't believe this thread is still going! LOL...did the OP ever come back to respond?? LOL
My only issue is if you know something ahead of time, why not take the necessary steps to avoid potential conflicts? You knew your program does not require a lab (which is crazy in itself); I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you also knew that majority of anatomy labs involve animal dissection before they do cadavers (cadavers are usually seen in med schools or schools that have a pretty great budget); so why not find a lecture class only or possibly an online class where the lab is simulated? Yes, the professor was a tool in his delivery and response; however, your beliefs are just that, YOURS - no one elses; therefore, it is your responsibility to find environments that coincide or at least do not go against YOUR beliefs and practices, instead of asking said environment to change in order to fit your beliefs.
This is just my opinion. Hope this advice helps you in the future. Good luck.
In Switzerland, people were recently asked to vote on a referendum that would give animals legal representation in an abuse or neglect case, supposedly to look out for the rights of the animal, but of course it was to recover money from the perp, on behalf of the animal, but the dog's lawyer would get a cut of the sttlement, of course. The proposal was defeated by something like a 70/30 margin, but this goes to show how far the extreme animal rights people will go if given a chance. I say we put a stop to this liberal-progressive-radical animal rights agenda. The student should switch to a program more to her liking--such as political science, pre-law, nutrition, divinity or ecology, where she may feel 100% justified in imposing her own attitudes on others. Meanwhile, I will be at Outback Steakhouse knocking back a thick steak and a beer. By the way, vivisection refers to dissection of a live animal. When I cut into the steak, I will not have any regrets.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Wow, I came late to the party and just read all 12 pages. I am astounded by some of the comments. I hope some of the nurses who responded are more accepting of their patient's different values and beliefs than they have been towards the OP. Seems like some training on cultural diferences and diversity might be in order.
It does not surprise me, however, because I have often seen non-vegetarians become very defensive towards vegetarians. I have never understood this mentality. No one is telling you not to eat your cheeseburgers or cut up your cats. Relax.
Thank you. The other day I wrote out a long response that was zorched by my computer, and I decided to swear off this thread for good I tell ya! :)
The point I was trying to make was that the OPs objection was "ethical", or moral or spiritual. She believes animals reside on the same spiritual plane as human beings do. That is part of her "religion" if you will. Those who mock and lecture her for her wacky far out extremism would have apoplexy if their mainstream religion was treated in such a cavalier and disrespectful manner. If you are of the Islam faith, you want to be accomodated to pray 5 times a day, you can expect to have your diversity respected, at the least. Our institutions may not accomodate you, but they won't ridicule you. Imagine if the OP were Jehovah's Witness- does anyone think she would have had the same level of venom, or number of people telling her to get the hel1 out of nursing if she can't start a blood transfusion? I already know the answer to that, because I looked.
All the posts about what you can learn from dissecting animals serve about the same purpose as any other supposedly "rational" responses to someone's spiritual beliefs. A person who is pro-life is generally not persuaded to abandon that belief because someone explains to them in several hundred ways what the benefits of human embryonic stem cells are.
In Switzerland, people were recently asked to vote on a referendum that would give animals legal representation in an abuse or neglect case, supposedly to look out for the rights of the animal, but of course it was to recover money from the perp, on behalf of the animal, but the dog's lawyer would get a cut of the sttlement, of course. The proposal was defeated by something like a 70/30 margin, but this goes to show how far the extreme animal rights people will go if given a chance. I say we put a stop to this liberal-progressive-radical animal rights agenda. The student should switch to a program more to her liking--such as political science, pre-law, nutrition, divinity or ecology, where she may feel 100% justified in imposing her own attitudes on others. Meanwhile, I will be at Outback Steakhouse knocking back a thick steak and a beer. By the way, vivisection refers to dissection of a live animal. When I cut into the steak, I will not have any regrets.
Does this mean that you should go work at Outback? Please, some of these comments are so ridiculous. She has not expressed anything that indicates that she will have any problem with actual nursing. She also isn't trying to impose her attitudes on others just because she doesn't want to have other people impose their attitudes on to her. She finds it unethical to use animals for such purposes, period. She wasn't petitioning to get the rest of the class to not do the dissections, she simply did not want to do them herself for her own ethical reasons. I find it appalling that if someone didn't want to do something for religious purposes, especially if they were part of a mainstream religion, then that would be understood. But someone who has a different belief - one that is not mainstream but is a genuine, heartfelt belief nonetheless - is completely mocked and ridiculed.
BTW, this is an example of what a previous poster was talking about when they said that non-vegetarians are defensive to vegetarians. What does eating a steak without regrets have to do with anything that the OP said?
Furthermore, the real topic of the OPs post was whether or not her professor's response was unethical. Not debating whether or not animals should be used for dissections. That was really just an aside to explain the situation. And for the record, yes it was unethical. I agree that he is in no way required to accomodate her, but his response was rude and unneccessary - as were many of the responses in this thread.
The OP isn't asking for them to stop the dissection in clases and neither am I.
You had posted that the school should examine whether dissection was necessary. I was saying that I felt that was extreme for one student's lifestyle choice.
I disagree with making it compulsory and the idea that it is really that helpful to learn anatomy..
It wasn't compulsory, the OP enrolled in the class of their own free will, and even paid for it. This isn't like high school, which is compulsory....the OP chose this class out of the college catalog. There are online versions of A&P that don't require dissection.....there were other options, but the OP CHOSE this one.
No compulsion.
they want is an alternative for themselves. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to politely refuse to participate because of their personel values. Is it seriously that big a deal if you don't do the dissection? I didn't do any and I did very well on my grade.
So let those who want to dissect animals do so and respect the wishes of those who don't. It's a win, win situation for everyone.
Easy solution here.....register for a class that doesn't require dissection.
It's not about the dissection, it's about the expectation of customizing curriculum to meet one student's lifestyle choice.
I used this example on another page: What if I was ethically opposed to foresting? In order to live with my ethical choice, I don't use paper or wood. How acceptable would it be for me to ask the professor to conduct all my examinations only on the computer? Since I find paper to be unethical, I don't use it. I know that I could be evaluated just as well on the computer as I am on paper, so this accommodation should be granted. Yes, I know I could have enrolled in an online class that would test me without using paper.....but I enrolled in this class instead and expect the Professor to adapt to my lifestyle choice.
It's the same thing. Folks are getting so polarized about dissection and whether it should be allowed, used, etc. It's really not about dissection, it's about enrolling for a class that requires an element the student isn't willing to participate in (for whatever reason)....and expecting the school to accommodate their lifestyle choice.
This is not high school, this is not compulsory, there are other schools that offer this class without the offensive element.
Like purple-scrubs, I came to this thread twelve pages in and am stunned by the polarised responses.
There are clearly several questions here - the one posited by the OP, and a morass of others arising from the context of her question.
In response to the [paraphrased] "is this response inappropriate and ought I take it further" I say that that depends of what you (the OP) hope to gain. If it's a policy change then there may be more effective routes; if you want the professor to realised his remarks were out of line you may be disappointed; if you want him to reconsider his position and contemplate non-dissection alternatives then by all means try again. For what it's worth, I think his email was unhelpful and does not reflect a position of an educator interested in getting the best from his students. That said, if he's teaching several bunches of undergrads he undoubtedly recieves many emails requesting exemptions for all kinds of reasons and may well be over it.
I'm really surprised by the hostility that the context of this question raised, and by some of the examples contrived. I think my favourite so far is the idea that taking an animal dissection lab will help the OP if she's ever the first person on scene at a traffic accident that involves an injured animal.
I'm also interested to see so many people extrapolate on the experience, outlook and atttiude of the OP based only on her initial post - assumptions that she's squeamish, innocent, unprepared for the grittiness of real life, and hypersensitive.
I'm pleased that dissection has assisted some nurses with their understanding of A&P in ways that other methods apparently could or did not. I understand that - my seven week theatre placement as a student gave me insights into both human anatomy and why patients have so much pain post-op.
Despite this, I think my ability to be a clinical sound, skilled and compassionate nurse has very little to do with my OR experience. And somehow, despite my dissecting experience being limited to a bull's eye and a rat in high school biology class, I seem to have managed quite well as a nurse. I'm a clinical nurse specialist at one of Melbourne's most acute tertiary hospitals and am about to celebrate my 21st anniversary there.
Oh, and for what it's worth I was already aware before my theatre rotation that people are made of blood vessels, muscles, nerves, tendons, fluids and organs, rather than tofu.
Puhlease. There is no need to sacrifice these animals with modern day teaching techniques and visualization methods.
I have been a nurse for 16 years and we did not dissect anything..........
The need to cut up frogs, pigs, cats, or whatever is so yesterday. With imaging and media we have available today it is just a total waste.
Med students do benefit from dissecting humans because they need that kind of understanding, but someday soon even that will be passe because of simulation techniques we have now.
Y'all need to get with the modern world!
I am in Pre-Nursing, and just found out this weekend that I will be dissecting a cat...I've asked many who have taken the class, and NO ONE thinks it's a big deal. I totally disagree with it, and at the same time it's going to traumatize me. They said today that the professor does NOT give an alternative, and if you don't do it you will fail. There is a whole week of dissecting the same cat, for AnP I and II. I don't know what to do, I don't think it's right on top of the fact that I will freak out. I want to be a nurse, not a VET! I'd much rather have a human cadaver. I'm a vegitarian ontop of all of this, so I find this assignment just ethically wrong.
I am in Pre-Nursing, and just found out this weekend that I will be dissecting a cat...I've asked many who have taken the class, and NO ONE thinks it's a big deal. I totally disagree with it, and at the same time it's going to traumatize me. They said today that the professor does NOT give an alternative, and if you don't do it you will fail. There is a whole week of dissecting the same cat, for AnP I and II. I don't know what to do, I don't think it's right on top of the fact that I will freak out. I want to be a nurse, not a VET! I'd much rather have a human cadaver. I'm a vegitarian ontop of all of this, so I find this assignment just ethically wrong.
So you have no problem working on a human, but have a problem with a cat? Is that what you are saying? Have you ever seen a human cadaver? Think night of the living dead, what I would have given to just work on a cat. It creeped me out like nothing ever did. I made my wife change her choice on her drivers license. It was so undignified to me. I was just creeped out beyond discussion. Feel fortunate to only use a cat.
So you have no problem working on a human, but have a problem with a cat? Is that what you are saying? Have you ever seen a human cadaver? Think night of the living dead, what I would have given to just work on a cat. It creeped me out like nothing ever did. I made my wife change her choice on her drivers license. It was so undignified to me. I was just creeped out beyond discussion. Feel fortunate to only use a cat.
Exactly!! My ex (of 4 yrs), was a surgical pathologist, so yes I've been around dead bodies, and I saw a dead guy laying in the street once. Anyway, point being, it is a lot like Night of the Living Dead, and that would be hard and freaky, but I know I could get through it. I've always been SUPER sensitive to animals, and have never been able to take seeing one dead. To me it's not just a little thing I'm going to need to overcome, this is a BIG deal for me, and I'm having a really hard time with it. I will have to take AnP I in the fall, so I know I will have to figure this out before then. I just hope everyone is compassionate to me and others in the class who might just feel as strong as I do on this. I just don't think I should be made to do something that I feel in my heart and soul I shouldnt do.
To the OP... the professors response may have been out of line. Unfortunately, during your nursing clinicals, you are most likely run into a plethera of instructors who are just as crass. I'm sorry to say, but you are definitely going to have to get used to that. I'm not saying its right, but how it is... ALOT :-( I'm thinking you chose not to do the Lab component since it wasn't a requirement.
As far as the animal dissection perspective, its sad. It does however give many students a better understanding of how the body functions. I did a year of vet school which included 2 semesters of gross anatomy. I love animals. I had loads of vegan friends. We had to dissect EVERYTHING. There are ways you have to think about things to get around it sometimes. I will say that all the computer modules that we studied from did not compare in the slightest to having real hands on experience. Some animals have died from natural causes are given by families to the program. Parts from others are taken from food manufacturers and the animal would have died regardless for food purposes. Others were homeless, and had most likely been beaten and abused in horrible ways before euthanasia. I can tell you this... watching an animal being abused is a thousand time worse than knowing you are using that animals life for a good purpose. I suggest taking reverance in the life that was given and using it to educate yourself to your highest extent, because unfortunately, no matter how strongly you feel, it is GOING to happen. Make the most of the animals life that was taken. Its very very sad, but developing coping mechanisms is a necessity. You are going to see MUCH more sad and horrible situations in nursing that you will have no control over.
Exactly!! My ex (of 4 yrs), was a surgical pathologist, so yes I've been around dead bodies, and I saw a dead guy laying in the street once. Anyway, point being, it is a lot like Night of the Living Dead, and that would be hard and freaky, but I know I could get through it. I've always been SUPER sensitive to animals, and have never been able to take seeing one dead. To me it's not just a little thing I'm going to need to overcome, this is a BIG deal for me, and I'm having a really hard time with it. I will have to take AnP I in the fall, so I know I will have to figure this out before then. I just hope everyone is compassionate to me and others in the class who might just feel as strong as I do on this. I just don't think I should be made to do something that I feel in my heart and soul I shouldnt do.
I suggest withdrawing from the class, and finding a class in the area that doesn't dissect cats. The school has no requirement to change the curriculum of the class to meet your beliefs.
You know now that you have an issue, waiting until school starts to address this and just expecting the school to change curriculum for each student is unreasonable.
I am in Pre-Nursing, and just found out this weekend that I will be dissecting a cat...I've asked many who have taken the class, and NO ONE thinks it's a big deal. I totally disagree with it, and at the same time it's going to traumatize me. They said today that the professor does NOT give an alternative, and if you don't do it you will fail. There is a whole week of dissecting the same cat, for AnP I and II. I don't know what to do, I don't think it's right on top of the fact that I will freak out. I want to be a nurse, not a VET! I'd much rather have a human cadaver. I'm a vegitarian ontop of all of this, so I find this assignment just ethically wrong.
I think it's fortunate that you have discovered your school's A&P lab component early, before the class has started. If you feel you are unable to participate in the lab portion of your school's course, you have a couple of choices. My suggestion would be to talk to you advisor and find out if your school will accept A&P from another local university and then look into those school's curricula and find out if any utilize human cadavers rather than animal.
Your other choice is to participate even though you are not comfortable doing so. I think it is pretty common to be concerned and a bit scared to participate in dissections, whether animal or human. I will never forget the first time my lab professor uncovered our human cadavers and started lecturing and pointing out structures. I vividly recall that I learned very little that first lab because I was so overwhelmed by the experience. However, I gathered myself and realized what a great gift it was to have the ability to learn.
If you are unable to participate or take the class elsewhere, you have to accept the fact that it is a required portion of your course and you either receive a grade that reflects your lack of participation or you look to another school or another field.
I know that some people believe you can learn anatomy from computerized models as well as from physical subjects, but I respectfully disagree. We had computerized models and physical models in our lab. However, there was nothing like seeing the real thing and being able to logically work through the connections and structures.
MiahMSN, MSN, RN
310 Posts
Oh wow, I can't believe this thread is still going! LOL...did the OP ever come back to respond?? LOL
My only issue is if you know something ahead of time, why not take the necessary steps to avoid potential conflicts? You knew your program does not require a lab (which is crazy in itself); I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you also knew that majority of anatomy labs involve animal dissection before they do cadavers (cadavers are usually seen in med schools or schools that have a pretty great budget); so why not find a lecture class only or possibly an online class where the lab is simulated? Yes, the professor was a tool in his delivery and response; however, your beliefs are just that, YOURS - no one elses; therefore, it is your responsibility to find environments that coincide or at least do not go against YOUR beliefs and practices, instead of asking said environment to change in order to fit your beliefs.
This is just my opinion. Hope this advice helps you in the future. Good luck.