I am taking online A&P II at a community college. The course includes a lab component, though lab is not a requirement for the nursing program to which I have been admitted. I am not squeamish (used to be an EMT), nor do I oppose human cadaver dissection. I do, however, object to animal dissection for ethical reasons. I contacted my professor to request an alternative to the cow eye and heart dissection activities citing my ethical objection to animal dissection, and the fact that I haven't eaten or worn animals for over two decades. I expressed my willingness to engage in an alternate activity, such as an interactive, multimedia software program (we already utilize such software to conduct experiments on virtual lab animals). My request was denied. I was informed that if I chose not to do the dissections, I would be penalized with a deduction in points.
In response to my e-mail asking my professor to reconsider, I received the following reply (excerpt):
Would you tell someone who is badly mangled in a auto accident and bleeding to death that you cannot work on them because you are a vegetarian? I would hope not. If so, then you should choose another career.
My professor also called my ethical opposition to animal dissection into question with the following statement:
I understand being a vegetarian but this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens.
I found his message to be inappropriate, offensive, and ridiculous. I would like to obtain some outside perspective and would appreciate any comments you may have about this situation. Thanks.
Yes I'm sure that wonderful learning experience helped you so much in nursing :uhoh3: What a crock. Unless your going to be a surgeon I can hardly see how forcing someone to do something they clearly don't want to do like dissecting an animal can give you anything other than a morbid experience. And I strongly disagree that high tech substitutes are less valuable than dissecting some poor animal.
The OP has some pretty strong values that are quite similar to my own. Lucky for me my university accepts different values and beliefs and offers alternatives.
As for the silly arguments 'but your a nurse, you give patients products that are tested on animals yeah yeah' ok that's true and it can be challenging at times. But I refuse to wear any medical company representatives lanyards, pens or any of their other stuff. If any educational videos show any vivisection, animal testing I quietly walk out the room. I
Someone else said on this thread that as a nurse you'll see far worse. This argument doesn't wash with me given my specialty. In fact after starting out as an OR nurse I gave up eating meat.
No one should be ridiculed for their personel values and the professors response certainly did this.
Oh and the thick heads comment was directed at people telling the OP they shouldn't be a nurse because they don't want to dissect an animal.
But aren't you judging Elpark? She stated that she gained a lot from her dissection experience...yet you decided that you knew more about what was valuable to her. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if anyone (but the prof) thinks that alternate ways to learn anatomy are equivalent or not....they weren't offered as part of that class. There are classes that do offer a technological replacement for dissection.....the OP needs to find one of them if they're interested in taking A&P without doing a dissection.
I have no doubt that some folks are opposed to dissection such as you and the OP. But the OP signed up for a class that required dissection (and I can't immagine they didn't know there woul be dissection requied, yet they signed up knowing, they could have had this discussion before they signed up, but decided to wait until they were actually in the class)....then asked once to have a custom curriculum to avoid dissection....then when told no, asked again to reconsider....then got their feelings hurt when the Prof was obviously done with the conversation.
You get to run your life by any beliefs you wish. But if they're not mainstream beliefs....how much expectation that society whill change itself to adapt to your beliefs is really fair? It's not the Prof's job to customize the curriculum to match all his students beliefs.
The responses the professor and comments on this thread (i.e people aren't made of tofu-classic!) have given to the OP shows that not only is he and others ignorant of other people's beliefs but that they are disrespectful towards them as well. If he's going to be this unflexible about it then he can do so without resorting to silly arguments.
The argument that a vegetarian wouldn't be willing to assist with an auto accident is just ridiculous and has no relevance whatsoever with someone's reluctance to dissect an animal because they are against if for ethical reasons. There are plenty of vegetarian nurses out there who assist with operations, work in the emergency department and see all sorts of things that involve body parts.
CuriousMe-I'm not telling Elpark that I think they are a cruel person because they dissected a cat. I'm arguing here that I don't believe it's a necessary component to becoming a nurse and learning about A& P. And given that we are now in the year 2011 we have the technology to teach nursing students about anatomy without resorting to cutting up dead animals.
Yep we're in the minority group here. That doesn't give other people the right to resort to stereotype others and ridicule them . Not all vegetarians are peace loving hippies who eat tofu and don't want to see human injuries. Cutting up dead animals is NOT a nursing duty.
OP: My advice: stick to your guns. If you really can't do it then just lose a couple of marks, no biggie. I'd also write a letter to prof challenging his stupid arguments and making it clear that he was out of line.
An appropriate response by the professor may have said something like this:
The university does not offer an alternative, as the dissection is part of the curriculum. If you feel that you are not able to participate then unfortunately this will result in loss of marks.
See folks, it is possible to 'deal' with minorities without resorting to insult and stereotype. The professor has an obligation to treat students with respect. He doesn't have to change the whole curriculum but clearly from his response he just doesn't understand people who just can't bring themselves to cut up an animal.
The responses the professor and comments on this thread (i.e people aren't made of tofu-classic!) have given to the OP shows that not only is he and others ignorant of other people's beliefs but that they are disrespectful towards them as well. If he's going to be this unflexible about it then he can do so without resorting to silly arguments.
The argument that a vegetarian wouldn't be willing to assist with an auto accident is just ridiculous and has no relevance whatsoever with someone's reluctance to dissect an animal because they are against if for ethical reasons. There are plenty of vegetarian nurses out there who assist with operations, work in the emergency department and see all sorts of things that involve body parts.
CuriousMe-I'm not telling Elpark that I think they are a cruel person because they dissected a cat. I'm arguing here that I don't believe it's a necessary component to becoming a nurse and learning about A& P. And given that we are now in the year 2011 we have the technology to teach nursing students about anatomy without resorting to cutting up dead animals.
Yep we're in the minority group here. That doesn't give other people the right to resort to stereotype others and ridicule them . Not all vegetarians are peace loving hippies who eat tofu and don't want to see human injuries. Cutting up dead animals is NOT a nursing duty.
OP: My advice: stick to your guns. If you really can't do it then just lose a couple of marks, no biggie. I'd also write a letter to prof challenging his stupid arguments and making it clear that he was out of line.
Elkpark stated that dissection was a valuable learning opportunity in her becoming a nurse. I never said you stated she was cruel....I said that she stated it was important for her learning and you decided it wasn't, that it was unnecessary for nursing school. You don't get to decide what was a valuable learning experience for someone else....that would be the judgmental bit.
Now in the OP's case, I'm not trying to tell her what is and isn't a valuable learning experience.....I'm saying that she enrolled in a class that required dissection....knowing it required dissection.
Then was upset she was required to dissect....to the extent that she asked not once....but after being denied, asked for the decision to be reconsidered...even though nothing had changed. The Prof's reasons don't matter, the course has a set and published curriculum, which this Prof likely didn't create themselves. The student didn't want to complete everything within the course curriculum.
Instead of expecting the school to customize curriculum for one student.....the student should have enrolled in a class that met their needs.
The rest of this is just folks getting their feelings hurt and thinking it's a problem. There are problems and injustices in the world....this isn't one of them.
An appropriate response by the professor may have said something like this:
The university does not offer an alternative, as the dissection is part of the curriculum. If you feel that you are not able to participate then unfortunately this will result in loss of marks.
See folks, it is possible to 'deal' with minorities without resorting to insult and stereotype. The professor has an obligation to treat students with respect. He doesn't have to change the whole curriculum but clearly from his response he just doesn't understand people who just can't bring themselves to cut up an animal.
Or he was just plain tired of having the conversation with the OP.
Should the Prof have phrased his answer differently, of course. Is this a "problem" that needs to be solved....no.
I don't see anything wrong with the OP questioning this issue with the professor more than once. You can't change anything unless you try. I have always believed that if you don't agree with something then persist to try to do something rather than just blindly accept that this is the way it is. Maybe the school needs to re-examine whether the dissection is absolutely necessary.
I don't see anything wrong with the OP questioning this issue with the professor more than once. You can't change anything unless you try. I have always believed that if you don't agree with something then persist to try to do something rather than just blindly accept that this is the way it is. Maybe the school needs to re-examine whether the dissection is absolutely necessary.
Because one student has ethical objections? (and yes, I know you have the same objections...but you don't go to that school)
It's a minority standpoint that dissection is not helpful in learning A&P....there are currently classes available with both experiences (dissection and simulation), why should students who want dissection as a tool to learn be denied?
I wouldn't take an A&P class without some kind of dissection component.
Of course, I enrolled in a class that included dissection....I didn't enroll in one that only had simulation experiences and then expect them to provide me with a dissection lab instead to meet my needs.
The OP isn't asking for them to stop the dissection in clases and neither am I. I disagree with making it compulsory and the idea that it is really that helpful to learn anatomy.
All they want is an alternative for themselves. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to politely refuse to participate because of their personel values. Is it seriously that big a deal if you don't do the dissection? I didn't do any and I did very well on my grade.
So let those who want to dissect animals do so and respect the wishes of those who don't. It's a win, win situation for everyone.
Wow, I came late to the party and just read all 12 pages. I am astounded by some of the comments. I hope some of the nurses who responded are more accepting of their patient's different values and beliefs than they have been towards the OP. Seems like some training on cultural diferences and diversity might be in order.
It does not surprise me, however, because I have often seen non-vegetarians become very defensive towards vegetarians. I have never understood this mentality. No one is telling you not to eat your cheeseburgers or cut up your cats. Relax.
The OP isn't asking for them to stop the dissection in clases and neither am I. I disagree with making it compulsory and the idea that it is really that helpful to learn anatomy.
All they want is an alternative for themselves. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to politely refuse to participate because of their personel values. Is it seriously that big a deal if you don't do the dissection? I didn't do any and I did very well on my grade.
So let those who want to dissect animals do so and respect the wishes of those who don't. It's a win, win situation for everyone.
I agree that the professor should have been more polite. However, if OP didn't want to dissect in her anatomy class, she should have signed up for a class that did not require dissection or she should have been prepared to take the hit to her grade from not doing the work. If you don't want to do the work, don't take the class. There are all sorts of options out there and OP should have investigated those options rather than expecting the professor to do more work to accomodate her. We're not talking about ADA issues with OP asking to have untimed exams or another accomodation, we're dealing with a student who wants the professor to change the course curriculum to suit her.
While some here may believe that they can get as good of an education from a simulator as they would from a physical lab, apparently this anatomy professor or biology department does not believe that they are comparable - hence the required disssection lab.
In our anatomy course we did little actual dissection - just eyes, hearts and brains from various animals. The rest of our anatomy lab was working with cadavers and as pre-nursing students, we had the great privilege or working with cadavers that those more qualified had already dissected. The opportunity to see, feel and touch was very different than the simulator lab experience I have had. There was no comparison.
Wow, I came late to the party and just read all 12 pages. I am astounded by some of the comments. I hope some of the nurses who responded are more accepting of their patient's different values and beliefs than they have been towards the OP. Seems like some training on cultural diferences and diversity might be in order.
It does not surprise me, however, because I have often seen non-vegetarians become very defensive towards vegetarians. I have never understood this mentality. No one is telling you not to eat your cheeseburgers or cut up your cats. Relax.
I don't see what vegetarianism/veganism has to do with the OPs situation. OP has a choice to take the class and either participate in the required curriculum or OP can take the course and lose points by not participating in the required curriculum or OP can find a course at another location that does not require cat dissection and transfer the credit.
I think comments such as the professor's and others that the OP needs to find a different profession are defensive, as are some other comments on this thread. Other than that, it is just my personal observation that this is a common reaction to vegetarianism/animal rights/etc.
And this is coming from someone who is not currently vegetarian (I have been in the past but I have medical issues that make it difficult to get the nutrients I need when vegetarian).
CuriousMe
2,642 Posts
But aren't you judging Elpark? She stated that she gained a lot from her dissection experience...yet you decided that you knew more about what was valuable to her. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if anyone (but the prof) thinks that alternate ways to learn anatomy are equivalent or not....they weren't offered as part of that class. There are classes that do offer a technological replacement for dissection.....the OP needs to find one of them if they're interested in taking A&P without doing a dissection.
I have no doubt that some folks are opposed to dissection such as you and the OP. But the OP signed up for a class that required dissection (and I can't immagine they didn't know there woul be dissection requied, yet they signed up knowing, they could have had this discussion before they signed up, but decided to wait until they were actually in the class)....then asked once to have a custom curriculum to avoid dissection....then when told no, asked again to reconsider....then got their feelings hurt when the Prof was obviously done with the conversation.
You get to run your life by any beliefs you wish. But if they're not mainstream beliefs....how much expectation that society whill change itself to adapt to your beliefs is really fair? It's not the Prof's job to customize the curriculum to match all his students beliefs.