I am taking online A&P II at a community college. The course includes a lab component, though lab is not a requirement for the nursing program to which I have been admitted. I am not squeamish (used to be an EMT), nor do I oppose human cadaver dissection. I do, however, object to animal dissection for ethical reasons. I contacted my professor to request an alternative to the cow eye and heart dissection activities citing my ethical objection to animal dissection, and the fact that I haven't eaten or worn animals for over two decades. I expressed my willingness to engage in an alternate activity, such as an interactive, multimedia software program (we already utilize such software to conduct experiments on virtual lab animals). My request was denied. I was informed that if I chose not to do the dissections, I would be penalized with a deduction in points.
In response to my e-mail asking my professor to reconsider, I received the following reply (excerpt):
Would you tell someone who is badly mangled in a auto accident and bleeding to death that you cannot work on them because you are a vegetarian? I would hope not. If so, then you should choose another career.
My professor also called my ethical opposition to animal dissection into question with the following statement:
I understand being a vegetarian but this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens.
I found his message to be inappropriate, offensive, and ridiculous. I would like to obtain some outside perspective and would appreciate any comments you may have about this situation. Thanks.
LOL Im definitely not at work, I hate Mondays, I try to hibernate if possible.
Anyways, as to your insults, mockings, and ridicules:
Most of those were not even personally insulting, and the worst ones came from the same 2 posters! It's funny when people expect you to be all super polite and respectful of your opinion, but then don't want to hear yours. She can say that her professor was rude and whatnot, but no one can say that he has a right to be insulted as well.... When you ask for a bag of mixed nuts, that's what you get. You gotta take the good with the bad, and everything in between.
And while YES, there are exceptions to EVERY rule, for the most part the people who answered this thread, harsh or not, showed that they "care" by taking their time and giving their opinions. Maybe they weren't exactly what she was hoping to hear, but sometimes that's what we need in life. Now I have no clue whether or not the OP was in need of an attitude adjustment- probably not, she seems level headed enough I guess- but she got one regardless because that's what happens when you ask a question that some people may be passionate about. That's why I never discuss religion or politics in mixed company.
WOW! I cannot believe the professor's response to the OP's request, or some of the responses on here attacking the OP.
Dissection is really not something necessary for nursing, and some schools even have online interactive dissections as an option. When I took A&P, I took it online and we got a whole fetal pig in the mail and it had to sit in my house for most of the semester(very gross). I did the dissection, and I am not a vegetarian. We had the OPTION of taking a picture of our dissection OR downloading pics from online.
I think the people protesting the P's decision and the professors reactionstem from thinking that vegans are "rediculous" in general and just kind of "sticking it to them". The professor could have the OP do an online dissection, watch a video,etc. You dont need to dissect a pig heart to learn how a heart functions. The OP should definitely take this to the "higher ups" because the professor's reaction was highly inappropriate and he/she obviously didnt understand the reasoning.
WOW! I cannot believe the professor's response to the OP's request, or some of the responses on here attacking the OP.
Dissection is really not something necessary for nursing, and some schools even have online interactive dissections as an option. When I took A&P, I took it online and we got a whole fetal pig in the mail and it had to sit in my house for most of the semester(very gross). I did the dissection, and I am not a vegetarian. We had the OPTION of taking a picture of our dissection OR downloading pics from online.
I think the people protesting the P's decision and the professors reactionstem from thinking that vegans are "rediculous" in general and just kind of "sticking it to them". The professor could have the OP do an online dissection, watch a video,etc. You dont need to dissect a pig heart to learn how a heart functions. The OP should definitely take this to the "higher ups" because the professor's reaction was highly inappropriate and he/she obviously didnt understand the reasoning.
See this is what I don't understand. The Prof is not in the nursing program. He's a Prof that teaches science classes at this school....that's it. There's a curriculum for these classes, this curriculum required dissection (not surprising, it was an A&P lab after all). The fact that the Prof doesn't want to customize the curriculum for the OP has NOTHING to do with whether dissection makes a better nurse.
Yes, I know what he wrote to her....but he's not a nurse....why on earth would she care that the science prof doesn't think she'll make a good nurse? If she only wanted to do half the curriculum in a math class and the Math Prof said she wouldn't be a good nurse, would that be a problem as well?
It's not like he spoke about something he knew about....he didn't say to the OP that she'd make a lousy science Prof. What is the big deal here? I haven't surveyed whether my mailman thinks I'd make a good nurse either....have I been remiss?
The cow was dead before it was dissected and the eye would have gone into petfood had it not found it's way to your college for the purpose of teaching Nursing Students about the human eye, using animal models. Would you have allowed your fellow students to dissect one of your eyes instead? If not, why not? Because you are better than an animal? Horrors! Bad Vegetarian! Bad human!
You need to understand that it is not your place to control your teacher's speech, define the scope of science or your own course work. You signed up for the class and it is what it is. Take your opinions and/or yourself somewhere else where the professors thoughtlessly believe and conform their speech to the leftist propaganda which you have bought into.
Trying to censor the professor because he/she doesn't agree with your values is the wrong thing to do, because your attitude and approach to this non-problem is based on your own narrow perspective.
The problem is with you and your offended-by-most-anything-I-don't-agree-with approach to what should be decided based on facts, not emotion. Do you really want to be a nurse? You decide, get a life, another school, or a different major.
Saying something inappropriate SHOULD be reported. We are being forced to "deal" with varying types of sexual orientation, whats not to say the professor in question will make an anti-gay slur someday?
Saying something inappropriate SHOULD be reported. We are being forced to "deal" with varying types of sexual orientation, whats not to say the professor in question will make an anti-gay slur someday?
Holy Smokes!!! Do your legs hurt after a leap of logic that big?
Holy Smokes!!! Do your legs hurt after a leap of logic that big?
For all you know the Prof is gay.
Wow, talk about comparing apples to Toyotas!
Because we are talking about someone's ethical stance on something, and the need to be sensitive to it. Just because the professor may not agree with the OP's stance on dissection/veganism, does not mean he/she has the right to slander/make rude comments to the OP.
My point is that if the professor's actions are not pointed out now as inappropriate, they will go on doing it.
Because we are talking about someone's ethical stance on something, and the need to be sensitive to it. Just because the professor may not agree with the OP's stance on dissection/veganism, does not mean he/she has the right to slander/make rude comments to the OP.
My point is that if the professor's actions are not pointed out now as inappropriate, they will go on doing it.
Look, I'm sorry that the OP got her feelings hurt. I suppose if the OP is that wounded by the Prof's comments, she should do what she needs to do to make herself feel better. Although, truthfully I doubt much if anything will come of it. Anything that is done will likely be done as a show to mollify the OP and boost her feelings.
I really just don't see that it's a big deal, or why she would care what the Prof says about her suitability to be a nurse.
This Prof didn't actually say what they felt about vegan/vegetarian. He showed a lack of understanding as to why she should have a problem with dissection...that's not his fault. The OP does not hold mainstream beliefs, I think it's not terribly realistic to expect others to understand, or even want to understand her perspective.
And this was a private e-mail, no slander was involved.
The OP pressed the point after she was already told no, and he gave his opinion. She didn't like it. But to compare this to homophobia? To discrimination of some kind? That devalues what folks who are discriminated against go through. The OP isn't being denied anything; they signed up to take a class that included items she chooses to not do (a choice for ethical reasons is still a choice). She asked to customize the curriculum, she was told no, she asked again and didn't like the Prof's answer.
Not discrimination. The Prof has no mandate to be sensitive to a personal choice the OP has made.
If I made the decision that foresting was wrong, and so decided to not use paper at all and request that all my exams be electronic instead of on paper....do I then have the right to be annoyed when the Prof refuses and show's a complete lack of understanding or desire to understand my ethical choice? Or says that if I'm not willing to deal with paper, I should rethink being a nurse? Of course not, he runs a class in a specific way....my personal choices should have no impact on how the class is run.
Or should the solution to this scenario be that I know what my ethical lifestyle choices require of me and chose to take an online class instead of trying to get the school to change the curriculum for me?
Look, I'm sorry that the OP got her feelings hurt. I suppose if the OP is that wounded by the Prof's comments, she should do what she needs to do to make herself feel better. Although, truthfully I doubt much if anything will come of it. Anything that is done will likely be done as a show to mollify the OP and boost her feelings.
I really just don't see that it's a big deal, or why she would care what the Prof says about her suitability to be a nurse.
This Prof didn't actually say what they felt about vegan/vegetarian. He showed a lack of understanding as to why she should have a problem with dissection...that's not his fault. The OP does not hold mainstream beliefs, I think it's not terribly realistic to expect others to understand, or even want to understand her perspective.
And this was a private e-mail, no slander was involved.
The OP pressed the point after she was already told no, and he gave his opinion. She didn't like it. But to compare this to homophobia? To discrimination of some kind? That devalues what folks who are discriminated against go through. The OP isn't being denied anything; they signed up to take a class that included items she chooses to not do (a choice for ethical reasons is still a choice). She asked to customize the curriculum, she was told no, she asked again and didn't like the Prof's answer.
Not discrimination. The Prof has no mandate to be sensitive to a personal choice the OP has made.
If I made the decision that foresting was wrong, and so decided to not use paper at all and request that all my exams be electronic instead of on paper....do I then have the right to be annoyed when the Prof refuses and show's a complete lack of understanding or desire to understand my ethical choice? Or says that if I'm not willing to deal with paper, I should rethink being a nurse? Of course not, he runs a class in a specific way....my personal choices should have no impact on how the class is run.
Or should the solution to this scenario be that I know what my ethical lifestyle choices require of me and chose to take an online class instead of trying to get the school to change the curriculum for me?
The OP's class was online.
"The Prof has no mandate to be sensitive to a personal choice the OP has made." So then if the OP had an abortion, and the professor knew, it would be okay for her to make comments about that? That would be considered a "personal choice" by the OP.
I am realy not trying to take this to the extreme, but it seems like people think you can treat/speak to people any old way you want. When you are in a professional seat, like a nurse or professor, sometimes you have to think about things and how they will affect people before you say/write them.
I brought up the online class as a solution for someone who is opposed to foresting and using paper. It would be analogous to the OP finding an A&P class that didn't require dissection....which would have avoided this entire episode.
That's the point, folks who make lifestyle choices that aren't main stream shouldn't expect others to accommodate their lifestyle choices. So, if I'm against forestry and don't use paper in my own life, I should look for an online class and not expect the Prof. to change their curriculum. If I don't believe in doing dissections, I should look for an A&P class that doesn't require them.
"The Prof has no mandate to be sensitive to a personal choice the OP has made." So then if the OP had an abortion, and the professor knew, it would be okay for her to make comments about that? That would be considered a "personal choice" by the OP.
I am realy not trying to take this to the extreme, but it seems like people think you can treat/speak to people any old way you want. When you are in a professional seat, like a nurse or professor, sometimes you have to think about things and how they will affect people before you say/write them.
Wow, you say you're not trying to take this to extreme's....yet so far you've used homophobia and abortion as examples....so it seems that all evidence is to the contrary of your statement.
Like your homophobia example, it's such an out there example. Other than a student telling the Prof. they had an abortion, how on earth would that come up. And how on earth would it impact the curriculum?
Again, I'm sorry the OP's feelings were hurt. But this whole thing has just been blown out of proportion. No one's civil rights were impinged here.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
getting more popcorn, this is better than theater ... where do you work? you have so much time to devote to this thread with all these quotes to defend someone you probably have never met! i want a job like that. keep us informed, the economy is bad and we could use the break
where do you work? how do you have all this time to sit back and eat popcorn as you figure out cute font colors to use for your replies? love that shade of purple, though!
using the multi-quote function is much easier than it looks! should you choose to offer something useful,
where do you work? how do you have all this time to sit back and eat popcorn as you figure out cute font colors to use for your replies? love that shade of purple, though!
using the multi-quote function is much easier than it looks! should you choose to offer something useful,
Lala27poodles
66 Posts
LOL Im definitely not at work, I hate Mondays, I try to hibernate if possible.
Anyways, as to your insults, mockings, and ridicules:
Most of those were not even personally insulting, and the worst ones came from the same 2 posters! It's funny when people expect you to be all super polite and respectful of your opinion, but then don't want to hear yours. She can say that her professor was rude and whatnot, but no one can say that he has a right to be insulted as well.... When you ask for a bag of mixed nuts, that's what you get. You gotta take the good with the bad, and everything in between.
And while YES, there are exceptions to EVERY rule, for the most part the people who answered this thread, harsh or not, showed that they "care" by taking their time and giving their opinions. Maybe they weren't exactly what she was hoping to hear, but sometimes that's what we need in life. Now I have no clue whether or not the OP was in need of an attitude adjustment- probably not, she seems level headed enough I guess- but she got one regardless because that's what happens when you ask a question that some people may be passionate about. That's why I never discuss religion or politics in mixed company.