I am taking online A&P II at a community college. The course includes a lab component, though lab is not a requirement for the nursing program to which I have been admitted. I am not squeamish (used to be an EMT), nor do I oppose human cadaver dissection. I do, however, object to animal dissection for ethical reasons. I contacted my professor to request an alternative to the cow eye and heart dissection activities citing my ethical objection to animal dissection, and the fact that I haven't eaten or worn animals for over two decades. I expressed my willingness to engage in an alternate activity, such as an interactive, multimedia software program (we already utilize such software to conduct experiments on virtual lab animals). My request was denied. I was informed that if I chose not to do the dissections, I would be penalized with a deduction in points.
In response to my e-mail asking my professor to reconsider, I received the following reply (excerpt):
Would you tell someone who is badly mangled in a auto accident and bleeding to death that you cannot work on them because you are a vegetarian? I would hope not. If so, then you should choose another career.
My professor also called my ethical opposition to animal dissection into question with the following statement:
I understand being a vegetarian but this assignment does not require you to eat these animal specimens.
I found his message to be inappropriate, offensive, and ridiculous. I would like to obtain some outside perspective and would appreciate any comments you may have about this situation. Thanks.
Oh come on....... aren't you being a bit oversensitive now?
I challenge you to show ONE example of some "mocking and ridiculing" you because of your beliefs in this thread.
Some disagreed with you, but no one "insulted" you really. Ive been reading this thing and while people have been debating the issue, no one has really gotten personal or nasty except to say how rude the professor is......
Not surprising, the OP has already shown themselves to be somewhat sensitive. Some folks are, it's a shame though, it's got to make life tougher.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
=CuriousMe;4151440]Not surprising, the OP has already shown themselves to be somewhat sensitive. Some folks are, it's a shame though, it's got to make life tougher.
You are kidding, right? The OP has been pretty much the most restrained person in this entire saga!! First of all, again, she never indicated she would refuse to take the course or demand special treatment "just for her". She has been reading through scores of insulting comments such as "get over yourself" "get a life" "are you going to let a patient code and die in front of you?" etc etc etc. while only replying with kudos to people she agreed with. So long about post 110 or something, she writes a little paragraph that was polite, restrained and pointed, unlike the vast majority of the histrionic screed posted by others, and it's a shame that she is somewhat sensitive?? Sorry to be rude, but that is just ridiculous. And I mean it in the nicest way possible.
You are kidding, right? The OP has been pretty much the most restrained person in this entire saga!! First of all, again, she never indicated she would refuse to take the course or demand special treatment "just for her". She has been reading through scores of insulting comments such as "get over yourself" "get a life" "are you going to let a patient code and die in front of you?" etc etc etc. while only replying with kudos to people she agreed with. So long about post 110 or something, she writes a little paragraph that was polite, restrained and pointed, unlike the vast majority of the histrionic screed posted by others, and it's a shame that she is somewhat sensitive?? Sorry to be rude, but that is just ridiculous. And I mean it in the nicest way possible.
I totally agree. There was nothing "sensitive" about the OP's response. I've been reading some of these responses and shaking my head in disbelief at some of the fallacies that were being thrown out there.
You are kidding, right? The OP has been pretty much the most restrained person in this entire saga!! First of all, again, she never indicated she would refuse to take the course or demand special treatment "just for her". She has been reading through scores of insulting comments such as "get over yourself" "get a life" "are you going to let a patient code and die in front of you?" etc etc etc. while only replying with kudos to people she agreed with. So long about post 110 or something, she writes a little paragraph that was polite, restrained and pointed, unlike the vast majority of the histrionic screed posted by others, and it's a shame that she is somewhat sensitive?? Sorry to be rude, but that is just ridiculous. And I mean it in the nicest way possible.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. Although, I never commented on whether the OP was restrained or not, not sure why you brought that up.
She showed herself to be pretty sensitive to even be concerned with what the Prof said. Why on earth should she care if a Prof. who doesn't know her from a hole in the world and isn't a nurse in any way, thinks she should find a new profession?
Then posted here, evidently expecting the world to be outraged because a Prof (who by the way still doesn't know her from a hole in the world and still isn't a nurse) thinks she shouldn't be a nurse, and finding most folks thought it wasn't that big a deal.
Yes, I'd say the OP has shown themselves to be somewhat sensitive.
That's not a slam to the OP at all....we all have different temperaments.
You are kidding, right? The OP has been pretty much the most restrained person in this entire saga!! First of all, again, she never indicated she would refuse to take the course or demand special treatment "just for her". She has been reading through scores of insulting comments such as "get over yourself" "get a life" "are you going to let a patient code and die in front of you?" etc etc etc. while only replying with kudos to people she agreed with. So long about post 110 or something, she writes a little paragraph that was polite, restrained and pointed, unlike the vast majority of the histrionic screed posted by others, and it's a shame that she is somewhat sensitive?? Sorry to be rude, but that is just ridiculous. And I mean it in the nicest way possible.
"Scores" of rude comments? I don't think so.
ONE comment of "get a life" spoken by someone who was obviously harsh from the get go, and ONE "get over yourself" from an equally as rude poster who, by the way, got BLASTED out of the water afterwards by the 'feelings' police that patrols this board (looking for injustices to correct lol).
If you pose a potentially controversial question, you have to be prepared for some disagreeing answers. And since when are we supposed to be "restrained" on a freakin internet message board? Just because she chose not to go into detail and address every reply doesn't mean she's "more restrained" than the other posters who dared to respond. I guess in your eyes it would have been more polite and better to respond with short, polite answers of "I agree" or "I disagree". Psssh. MOST people explained their side of the argument in a perfectly respectful manner. People are entitled to their own opinions, and if you ask for their opinion, prepare to get it! If you don't wanna know the truth, DON'T ASK! I usually don't for that VERY reason!
The "vast majority" was not "histronic creeds". Just because half the posters disagreed with the OP doesn't mean the next step is look for a way to disprove any valid points they might have had by saying "they were all rude and silly and just forget it!" That argument is BS. Total straw man argument.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I challenge you to show ONE example of some "mocking and ridiculing" you because of your beliefs in this thread., no one has really gotten personal or nasty except to say how rude the professor is....
Sure, I'm up for a challenge! It will be interesting to see how people interpet all of this as not rude and not mocking. To all those that are gonna flame. . . go ahead I've lost the urge to fight on..
; Would you have allowed your fellow students to dissect one of your eyes instead? If not, why not? Because you are better than an animal? Horrors! Bad Vegetarian! Bad human!
=Since when are animals' lives more important than humans' lives? Ok i like animals and all, but- seriously- the statement of being ok with dissecting a human cadaver but not an animal carcass?? Are u kidding me?? Come on- this has got to be a joke.
If the op is animal passionate to the extent she says she is, then she should spend her $ and her time at the animal shelter, and find homes for them and bring home all of them that are set to be euthanized
You were just hoping he would say "Sure! No problem!" and that would be that. Well, welcome to college
First of all, get over yourself. What is inappropriate is nursing students all over the place complaining and whining about things they don't want to do or they deserved this grade or that grade, or this part of the program is bad or blah, blah, blah.
This is a college course, not Burger King....it's not a "Have it Your Way" kind of experience
If you're so against animal dissection in the interest of learning how bodies work so you can later help save them, you may need to consider a career shift. People aren't made of tofu.
Take your opinions and/or yourself somewhere else where the professors thoughtlessly believe and conform their speech to the leftist propaganda which you have bought into.
It's silly to whine about his hurting your little feelings. If that's the worst that is ever said to you, you probably won't be a nurse at ALL!
Makes me wonder if they'll stand over a patient who's coding and refuse to continue chest compressions because of their "Morals and Ethics" ????
Quite handily, this is answered. She was an EMT. Which also makes the admonishments about patient care being all gnarly in the real world a moot point.
If you pose a potentially controversial question, you have to be prepared for some disagreeing answers. And since when are we supposed to be "restrained" on a freakin internet message board?
Read above. Consider all that to her 3 posts Most people would have gone apesh/t. When she did reply, it was exceedingly civil compared to what it could have been. Restraint. I'm not the OP, btw
The "vast majority" was not "histronic creeds".
Screeds. Not a typo.
Gotta go now. I wore out my quote button. In conclusion. . zzzzzzzzzz
I challenge you to show ONE example of some "mocking and ridiculing" you because of your beliefs in this thread., no one has really gotten personal or nasty except to say how rude the professor is....
Sure, I'm up for a challenge! It will be interesting to see how people interpet all of this as not rude and not mocking. To all those that are gonna flame. . . go ahead I've lost the urge to fight on..
Quite handily, this is answered. She is an EMT. Which also makes the admonishments about patient care being all gnarly in the real world a moot point.
If you pose a potentially controversial question, you have to be prepared for some disagreeing answers. And since when are we supposed to be "restrained" on a freakin internet message board?
Read above. Consider all that to her 3 posts Most people would have gone apesh/t. When she did reply, it was exceedingly civil compared to what it could have been. Restraint. I'm not the OP, btw
Screeds. Not a typo.
Gotta go now. I wore out my quote button. In conclusion. . zzzzzzzzzz
Hmmm...we have different definitions of mocking and ridiculing. I see those comments as disagreement with the OP's perspective. What was there to go (as you so eloquently? put it) apesh/t about?
Why post a comment or post if all the poster is looking for is agreement?
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I really don't think she was looking for agreement. Her nursing program didn't require the lab section. She wasn't interested in arguing the pros and cons of animal testing/dissection. She just wanted to get some feedback from the board as to her perception of his e-mail. Since it was obviously offensive and insensitve, it took a lot of grace on her part, to get some of the other's opinions as to their take. The first couple of pages were very civil and respectful, call them the "disagreers" then it seemed like the flotilla of judgements and lectures, sarcasm, (which absolutely is a form of mocking imo) If it was an organized religion she were talking about and people responded like that, the outrage would be fast and furious.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Many of those remarks would be hurtful, and yes they were personal. Sorry you don't see it that way.
I really don't think she was looking for agreement. Her nursing program didn't require the lab section. She wasn't interested in arguing the pros and cons of animal testing/dissection. She just wanted to get some feedback from the board as to her perception of his e-mail. Since it was obviously offensive and insensitve, it took a lot of grace on her part, to get some of the other's opinions as to their take. The first couple of pages were very civil and respectful, call them the "disagreers" then it seemed like the flotilla of judgements and lectures, sarcasm, (which absolutely is a form of mocking imo) If it was an organized religion she were talking about and people responded like that, the outrage would be fast and furious.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Many of those remarks would be hurtful, and yes they were personal. Sorry you don't see it that way.
Don't be sorry for me, I'm not the one who's upset. I'm sorry you do see them that way.
It was naive to think that a post to a public board about not wanting to dissect animals wouldn't start a debate. And she did get feedback from the board as to the e-mail, it just didn't agree with her perception (and was called "mocking & ridiculing" because of it).
It was irrelevant whether she needed the lab for her nursing program. She signed up for the lab. If she didn't know the lab required dissection, she should have (somehow doubt it's a well kept secret). If she wasn't willing to participate in the class without creating her own curriculum, she shouldn't have signed up for the class.
This post interests me. As a vegan I knew that when I took my ATNC I would be expected to put a chest drain in a cow (dead of course!!!) and a trach in a sheeps throat. I got myself all stewed up about it and asked if I could opt out. Was told yes that would be fine
Come the course my instructor said that although they understood my beliefs if I ever needed to do either of the above then watching the technique was nothing like feeling for the pleura etc. I decided they were right and did both and from my own personal viewpoint I know I would not have learnt as much and not felt as prepared when the time came to use the skills.
Just my five pennorth and thankyou everyone that has contributed I learnt a lot
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I'm not upset, either. I think she was treated unfairly. All sorts of personality traits were extrapolated from a short, little paragraph to the point where she is accused by two people of "whining" about her "little feelings". You don't have a problem with that. I do. Thanks for an interesting discussion! I never hold feelings of animosity towards people I disagree with here.
Well, OK maybe for a minute. . . I do have a tendency to become guilt-ridden about stuff I write and make it just under the "edit" wire to remove some of the more "colorful" commentary. Have a good. . . well it's 4:30 ish here so good morning!!:)
sure, i'm up for a challenge! it will be interesting to see how people interpet all of this as not rude and not mocking. to all those that are gonna flame. . . go ahead i've lost the urge to fight on..
...
quite handily, this is answered. she was an emt. which also makes the admonishments about patient care being all gnarly in the real world a moot point.
if you pose a potentially controversial question, you have to be prepared for some disagreeing answers. and since when are we supposed to be "restrained" on a freakin internet message board?
read above. consider all that to her 3 posts most people would have gone apesh/t. when she did reply, it was exceedingly civil compared to what it could have been. restraint. i'm not the op, btw
screeds. not a typo.
gotta go now. i wore out my quote button. in conclusion. . zzzzzzzzzz
getting more popcorn, this is better than theater ... where do you work? you have so much time to devote to this thread with all these quotes to defend someone you probably have never met! i want a job like that. keep us informed, the economy is bad and we could use the break
In conclusion. . zzzzzzzzzz
CuriousMe
2,642 Posts
Not surprising, the OP has already shown themselves to be somewhat sensitive. Some folks are, it's a shame though, it's got to make life tougher.