WHY does a B.S. + RN not equal BSN

[jlpsu]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm asking a serious question because I really don't understand. I also didn't post this over in the ADN vs BSN thread because it's not nearly as active. I also searched for answers (so don't skewar me), and while I found others who asked if it's the same and were simply told 'no it's not'...but I couldn't find an answer to WHY it's not. So here it goes...

I have two B.S. degrees..one in Speech Therapy, and the other in Computer Science (don't ask..life detours keep life interesting).

I am now purusuing a nursing career. My mother was a nurse for 40 years. I keep hearing how I really NEED a BSN to move up in the field. But here's the rub - I have no desire to go back for a THIRD BS degree. I have general education coming out the wazoo. At the most I'm willing to go from an RN-MSN program provided I get tuition help from my employer as I've had enough education expenses thankyouverymuch. But another BS degree...Really?

I am also being told, here and in other places, that a B.S. degree in another field, plus an RN license does NOT equal a BSN. I really don't get that. I have the general education from a 4 year degree (and then some), and I will (God willing) have the RN education which basically encompasses the last 2 years of a BSN program (and the program I will be going through actual has MORE clinical hours than the BSN programs locally). So, 2+2 = BSN in my mind. So why doesn't it?

And don't tell me it's because of this elusive Magnet Status either. Because two of our local hospitals have Magnet status and they not only HIRE ADN's, they RUN hospital based diploma programs which spit out wonderfully prepared diploma nurses...who then get hired at said hospitals. So, the theory that Magnet Status hospitals don't hire anything less than BSN's....well, I'm confused on that too because I keep hearing it here - but the reality seems quite different - at least where I live. Feel free to answer that for me too....

So what I am hearing here is...get your BSN. If you get a diploma or ADN first and you already have a BS degree - then you need to do an RN-BSN program which will include your general education...which i ALREADY have! So, what, I take one or two bridge classes and call it a BSN? It not only seems like a money grab from the Universities, but also a semantic technicality by everyone else. What am I missing?

Please, someone - kindly- explain to me the difference between a BS degree in ANYTHING in CONJUNCTION with an RN license...and a BSN. I really want to know.

[KJM-RN, BSN]

I'm pretty sure my 2 years I spent as an honors business major covered more leadership classes than I ever care to think about. Obviously not health care related but it's all the same really. I have no interest in managerial level work. I just want to treat the patients directly.

BSN students take more pharmacology than ADN students? I thought my 20 weeks / 7 semester hours of pharmacology was a ton!! Wow!! We also take anatomy, physiology, microbiology, and pathophysiology. We do 7 clinicals: LTC, OB, Med/Surg I, Med/Surg II, Peds, Psych, and Elective Preceptorship. Our lecture during out elective preceptorship class is all about leadership in nursing so I imagine I'll get even more leadership fun down the road here...

I guess it just boils down to the fact that they require certain classes whether you took similar ones or not in order to earn the BSN. You sound like a very good candidate for an accelerated BSN program.

I was rejected from the local BSN program, but was accepted to my backup ADN. In the end I'm happier, I like the focus of the ADN program much better than the BSN program. What's funny too is, you need much higher grades to get into the ADN program as opposed to the BSN. If you had a 3.6 you were rejected from the ADN, but if you had a 2.5 you may have gotten into the BSN program. The whole system just doesn't make sense.

[Gabby820]

What type of specific curriculum does a BSN program entail (besides general education) that a RN program doesn't? At clinical today, I worked with two nurses who did ADN programs and much later went back and got the BSN through an ADN-BSN program and they both said they thought it was a waste of $$ in terms of being a better bedside nurse.

Also, if BS + ADN is not pretty darn close in education to a BSN, why are there a lot of programs that will let a student withOUT a BSN but with a BS + ADN direct enter into a MSN program like a BSN student does?

Finally, if both ADN and BSN lead to a RN with equal practice rights as a nurse, how valuable can those extra classes REALLY be if you don't get any additional privileges as a bedside nurse?

When a student sits for the NCLEX whether it's a student from a ADN program or BSN program, we take the SAME exam. However, the BSN program has way more theory based classes. In my ADN program, for example, we have one community theory class whereas for a BSN program you have much more . I'm going for my BSN, mainly because a lot of hospitals in my area want BSN, RN's. In addition, a nurse with a BSN might be better fit for a managerial position rather than an ADN RN with the same experience. That's just what I hear but I also know of ADN RN's that do hold managerial positions. Who knows!

As far as the accelerated MSN programs--students who hold BS in other fields will probably have to take the same classes as students who have already completed their BSN, just at a much faster pace. To clarify----I know of someone who is going to NYU to complete her MSN but hold a BS in Marketing. She had to take tons of pre-reqs before getting in. If she had a BSN already, she wouldn't have had to take all those pre-reqs. I'm sure that students who hold a BS in another field attending an accelerated MSN program are taking far more classes than those who already have a BSN. Hope I didn't confuse you! :)

[jlpsu]

That's what I don't get. The diploma program and the associates programs locally both have MORE clinicals than the BSN programs as the major universities nearby. Addionally, both programs have transferable credits to those universities for your BSN...so, in effect, they are the same darn classes. The University counts them as equal for transfer credit. But if I don't transfer them, they aren't equal???

I understand, completely, that you only get the degree which you complete. And while I don't expect to be able to use the term 'BSN' if I didn't complete a BSN program, one would think that instead of a BSN being the end all, be all - administration would be more willing to look at the overall education of an individual. For example, by everyone's account here, someone with a management degree + ADN would not be as qualified as someone with a BSN to be in a leadership position? That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know whether I'll do the RN-BSN program or the RN-MSN program when all is said and done. It will depend on what I decide I want to do and how much tuition assistance I can get. The easiest thing for sure, is to do the BSN as I will have nearly all of the credits completed from my other education and will only need a few classes. But then I worry that in a few years, people are going to be having the BSN vs MSN debate and again...the education I have won't be 'good enough'. Considering I'll be 42 by the time I'm done with my education, I can't really see needing a masters to do what I want.

[llg, PhD, RN]

NO discipline accepts courses in another field as full substitution for work in the desired discipline. Why should nursing have such low self-esteem that it would allow courses in other disciplines to substitute for nursing courses?

I have a PhD in Nursing. If I were to get an Associate's Degree in physics, it would not make me the equivalent of a PhD physicist.

That's what some of you are asking nursing to do -- count your non-nursing courses as substitutes for nursing ones because you chose the wrong college major to begin with. It would be foolish for nursing to do that.

And for the record, the typical BSN content that is not found in typical ADN programs is the content related to nursing theory, nursing research, nursing leadership, nursing issues, and community health. Non-nursing courses on similar topics provide some overlapping content, but they do not familiarize the student with the NURSING knowledge, history, or perspective on such topics.

[llg, PhD, RN]

For example, by everyone's account here, someone with a management degree + ADN would not be as qualified as someone with a BSN to be in a leadership position?

No. That is wrong. Not everyone here believes that. I, for one do not. Perhaps you need to read some of the posts more carefully before making such a generalization.

I don't believe that a person with only the basic, lowest-level introductory knowledge of professional nursing is qualified for a leadership position. I believe a nursing leader should have a knowledge of nursing theory and nursing theory. I also think that a nursing leader should be familiar with the common leadership issues and perspectives of nursing leadership -- and NOT just a familiarity with business leadership in general. One should be well-aquainted with all aspects of a profession before trying to lead it -- and that includes having more than just the introductory academic nursing content.

[jlpsu]

NO discipline accepts courses in another field as full substitution for work in the desired discipline. Why should nursing have such low self-esteem that it would allow courses in other disciplines to substitute for nursing courses?

I have a PhD in Nursing. If I were to get an Associate's Degree in physics, it would not make me the equivalent of a PhD physicist.

That's what some of you are asking nursing to do -- count your non-nursing courses as substitutes for nursing ones because you chose the wrong college major to begin with. It would be foolish for nursing to do that.

And for the record, the typical BSN content that is not found in typical ADN programs is the content related to nursing theory, nursing research, nursing leadership, nursing issues, and community health. Non-nursing courses on similar topics provide some overlapping content, but they do not familiarize the student with the NURSING knowledge, history, or perspective on such topics.

No...that is not what we are saying. No one that I can see has said, "Hey, I want to count my business class as a nursing class!". Obviously, that isn't what we are saying. We are saying...the ADN and Diploma programs have classes which transfer into the Universities granting BSN's. The Universities are saying the classes are equal (if you transfer them, of course)...so for those of us who have the general education requirements complete through another degree, AND have COMPLETED the nursing courses through a diploma or ADN program (the same ones that count for credit towards a BSN at the Universities) - then how is that not the same as having a BSN...even if we can't CALL it a BSN. It's a valid question. The courses that are equal are only equal if we transfer them to the University? That's crazy. I understand that there are different classes and I'm conceeding that point and have said that I understand that point...but that being the case, I should only need to take one or two classes that are different from the University and the Diploma program in order to get my BSN...but that's not the case. Additionally, since the diploma program has nearly 1/3 more clinical time than the BSN, one would think I'd get to transfer in MORE credits to the BSN program...but that's not the case either. It just seems like a screwy system made up of people more concerned with TITLES than actual EDUCATION and an educational system all too willing to step in and offer classes to remedy that situation.

Additionally, comparing a PhD program to an associates program is ludacris. I am comparing relative Apple to Apples...a 4 year degree with 2 years of general ed and 2 years of nursing. Not 8 years of schooling with 2 years of schooling....No one here would argue that a PhD and an associates are in any way equal education....

[tvccrn, ASN, RN]

Question...Did you get your second Bachelors without having to the Bachelors courses?

The reason you the Bachelors in nursing is just that..it is a Bachelors in NURSING. Not in speech therapy or computer science, but nursing. Different course content= different degree.

[jlpsu]

No. That is wrong. Not everyone here believes that. I, for one do not. Perhaps you need to read some of the posts more carefully before making such a generalization.

I don't believe that a person with only the basic, lowest-level introductory knowledge of professional nursing is qualified for a leadership position. I believe a nursing leader should have a knowledge of nursing theory and nursing theory. I also think that a nursing leader should be familiar with the common leadership issues and perspectives of nursing leadership -- and NOT just a familiarity with business leadership in general. One should be well-aquainted with all aspects of a profession before trying to lead it -- and that includes having more than just the introductory academic nursing content.

Ok...so you say that you don't really think that someone with a management degree and an RN isn't capable of holding a leadership position in nursing...but then you go on to say that you think a nursing leader should have knowledge of nursing theory. So, in effect, you are saying that someone with any other kind of degree other than a nursing degree (BSN or higher) shouldn't be in nursing management. Which is what I'm reading from a lot of people. And I honestly don't get that. Because someone with a business degree AND an RN license would seem to me to have a much broader perspective than a BSN alone.

I did have to complete the BS classes for my second degree. But if I hadn't..and I'd gone to 2 years of tech school and combined that with my previous degree....I would have still gotten the same job because they would have seen it as EQUIVILENT to the bachelors in CS.

I have said, and will say it again, that I'm not talking about using the actual term BSN if I haven't completed my BSN. I understand that you only get the degree for which you studied and I understand that there are *some* classes that are different from the ADN and BSN programs (though, honestly, not a lot). What I AM talking about is equivilency for moving up in one's career. I don't give a flippidy flip about using the term BSN - but I DO care that my previous education would not be taken into consideration against someone with a BSN if I were to go for the same job. The extra 6 or 8 credits does not magically make someone leadership material. But I also understand that this is how the game is played - and it is overwhelmingly obvious to me that there is an incredible bias against anyone who hasn't completed their BSN - whether they have 5 master degrees behind their name or not....For whatever reason, the BSN is the gold standard...not the equivilent of a BSN...but the actual BSN degree. So, that's what I'll have to do. But it seems patently ridiculous and short sighted. In no other profession that I know, does your previous education mean NOTHING.

[sirI, MSN, APRN, NP]

Thread moved to Diploma/ADN/BSN forum since this is the topic.

[SummitRN, BSN, RN]

So can a University of Phoenix MBA get their RN and automatically be a MSN nurse practioner?

[jlpsu]

So can a University of Phoenix MBA get their RN and automatically be a MSN nurse practioner?

Of course not. I wish people would see what I am asking and not extrapolate the example into the extreme (I.e. Masters and PhD comparisons).

A masters level prepared nurse has 2 years of gen Ed, give or take...and 4 years of concentrated nursing education. An ADN prepared nurse only has 2 years of concentrated nursing education. Of course I would not be arguing for equivalency in that case. I am arguing for equivilency when there appears to be near equivalency in the curriculum as defined by the ADN programs and the Universities that accept those credits as equal in transferring them to a BSN program.

I can see that I'm not making myself clear, despite numerous attempts to do so, so I will just take it at face value from here on out that even if the classes are equivalent and the preparedness the same, one is NEVER the equivalent of a BSN unless they ARE a BSN.

This is one tough community, I will tell you that. But that's ok..I can take it.

[KJM-RN, BSN]

There are nursing specific classes that are taken in a BSN program that are not taken in an ADN program. That is the difference, not just gen ed. In 2 years taking just nursing classes an ADN will not be taking as many credits as a BSN. I assume this is why an accelerated BSN program was designed. I understand what you are saying, although qualified per say, you will still, in the end, be lacking the title of BSN.