SICK of BSN Pedestal - pg.14 | allnurses

SICK of BSN Pedestal - page 14

Get off the Pedestal with the whole BSN vs ADN thing. A fact this is overlooked is that ADN does the same job as BSN and passes the NCLEX. Everyone then cried ADN is uneducated blah blah. WHY dont we... Read More

  1. Visit  kalevra profile page
    2
    [QUOTE=NurseGuyBri;7189641 A starting professional. That's why it's a BACHELOR's degree. Masters- You've mastered your subject. I could keep going. So, why is the associate degree- the vocational school prepared degree, not for a LPN? The bachelor, the professional, an RN? Makes sense to me. Coming from someone who is a diploma RN, you have to know that I'm not about being better or worse than anyone who IS ALREADY A NURSE. I think we need to stop going back and start going forward. Sorry about the long winded message, I hope the idea gets through.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with what you are saying. I do not think stream lining would ever happen, because it make too much sense and hurt too many feelings.

    Any time you want to advance the education requirement of any field, you will have people who feelings have been hurt. They will complain of being singled out or made to feel less than their counter parts. IN my opinion this is one of the reasons why the profession wont streamline the process.

    We are doing a disservice to our selves. We create a supply of nurses that is in excess of the demand. We end up having new grads that cannot find jobs for 6-12 months after school.

    We need to standardize entry, reduce the redundancy of multiple RN education standards and hopefully get wrangle in this our of control factory system we call nursing education.
    TriciaJ and NurseGuyBri like this.
  2. Visit  BostonFNP profile page
    0
    Quote from Esme12
    I agree.......Isn't that what an "accelerated BSN" is? You already have a 4 year degree in something else.......therefore you can be called a 4 year degree nurse after a 2 year education (because you already spent your money on fluff extraneous courses).

    Are they "better than" another nurse with an ADN 2 year education? Frankly...no.
    The curriculum for aBSN and ADN is quite different, at least for most schools.

    And I would argue that in the future a population of bachelor-educated nurses is "better than" a population of associates-educated nurses.
    Last edit by BostonFNP on Feb 23, '13
  3. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    There was an article in this week's NYT basically stating something many of us have known for along time now; employers are now requiring a bachelor's degree for entry level hiring regardless of the position.

    Article mainly focused on a law firm in Atlanta, GA where even the file clerk, runner/gofer, paralegal and receptionist all have four year degrees.

    Several theories were put forth as to why this national trend has taken hold but employers interviewed including the partners of this particular law frim stated that they view those who persued a four year degree as more motivated and goal driven. Indeed several of the employees interviewed from this firm started in one job but were soon given extra work and or moved up because they showed ability.

    Also per the article today's job market is flooded with those seeking employment so employers are drawing a line in the sand to weed out some of the applicants.

    Don't know if one can post the link here but the story is easily found on Google news or elsewhere.
  4. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    There was an article in this week's NYT basically stating something many of us have known for along time now; employers are now requiring a bachelor's degree for entry level hiring regardless of the position.

    Article mainly focused on a law firm in Atlanta, GA where even the file clerk, runner/gofer, paralegal and receptionist all have four year degrees.

    Several theories were put forth as to why this national trend has taken hold but employers interviewed including the partners of this particular law frim stated that they view those who persued a four year degree as more motivated and goal driven. Indeed several of the employees interviewed from this firm started in one job but were soon given extra work and or moved up because they showed ability.

    Also per the article today's job market is flooded with those seeking employment so employers are drawing a line in the sand to weed out some of the applicants.

    Don't know if one can post the link here but the story is easily found on Google news or elsewhere.
    ^I was told to reach for a Bachelors in ALL professions in middle school about twenty years ago...when there was a bad stretch in the nursing market then...My teachers and counselors were encouraging us. If we got a Associates, great, but we needed to have a university lined up. Same thing throughout high school as well. In my area, teachers are required to have their Masters; my Science teachers had their doctorates.

    Fast forward, it is now a reality. I'm all for the entry level aspects as having required courses in Philosophy, Humanities, Art/Foreign language, Sciences, Math, Economics/Statistics, English; including public speaking gives a great base in interacting with various backgrounds, as well as critical thinking skills and communication skills.
    Eventually, a lot of the Associate Degree programs are going to partner with local Universities to have students complete their Bachelors. In my area, this had been happening for at least a decade in my area, so the opportunities and accessibility is there...and that is a good thing.

    The potentially bad thing is "weeding out people" People at least need to make a living and have the means to have an opportunity in having a career and make a living, because minimum wage is laughable in terms of being comfortable and to have a mortgage and run a household.

    Ok, off my soapbox
  5. Visit  mariebailey profile page
    1
    Quote from Esme12
    I agree.......Isn't that what an "accelerated BSN" is? You already have a 4 year degree in something else.......therefore you can be called a 4 year degree nurse after a 2 year education (because you already spent your money on fluff extraneous courses).

    Are they "better than" another nurse with an ADN 2 year education? Frankly...no.
    No, that is not how accelerated programs are designed. The accelerated programs require you to complete all the required pre-requisites a typical BSN completes, so someone may spend a several semesters after they graduated with their "fluff degree" taking add'l courses.

    The 2 year education involves taking more course hours per semester than a traditional program. I did an accelerated program, & we took 18 hours per semester & were enrolled in summer courses. That's why it's called "accelerated". If it was less work, then maybe it would be a different degree.

    As for prior degrees being "fluff degrees", the medical director at my last job told me that medical schools were trending toward preferring applicants with a more diverse educational background (as opposed to your typical science degrees) because they were well-rounded & adaptable. An interdisciplinary education may come in handy in nursing as well.
    MandaRN94 likes this.
  6. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from mariebailey
    No, that is not how accelerated programs are designed. The accelerated programs require you to complete all the required pre-requisites a typical BSN completes, so someone may spend a several semesters after they graduated with their "fluff degree" taking add'l courses.

    The 2 year education involves taking more course hours per semester than a traditional program. I did an accelerated program, & we took 18 hours per semester & were enrolled in summer courses. That's why it's called "accelerated". If it was less work, then maybe it would be a different degree.

    As for prior degrees being "fluff degrees", the medical director at my last job told me that medical schools were trending toward preferring applicants with a more diverse educational background (as opposed to your typical science degrees) because they were well-rounded & adaptable. An interdisciplinary education may come in handy in nursing as well.
    Cannot speak for any where else but in NYC at least most ABSN programs will require about one half to one year of pre-reqs before one can apply based upon one's previous course work. Much of these requirements are the standard science (A&P I and II with labs), Microbiology (with lab) general and organic chemistry (with labs) that all NYS BSN students take. The rest is usually 100 level Eng, Soc, Stats and a few others. It is only because it is not possible to take the sciences out of sequence (A&P and chemistry) that you have the year of course work. Of course if one has taken some or all of the prereqs as part of a previous four year degree they are usually grandfathered over.

    Here is Hunter-Bellevue's ABSN prerequisties:

    [FONT="Arial"]Science Prerequisite Course of Study with a minimum grade of "B" or its equivalent:
    • [FONT="Arial"]General Chemistry with lab (CHEM 100/101) or higher equivalent course
    • [FONT="Arial"]Organic Chemistry with lab (CHEM 120/121) or higher equivalent course
    • [FONT="Arial"]Human Anatomy and Physiology I & II (BIOL 120 & BIOL 122) 2 courses
    • [FONT="Arial"]Introduction to Statistics (STAT 113) or higher equivalent course
    • [FONT="Arial"]Microbiology with lab (BIOL 230)
    • [FONT="Arial"]English Composition (ENGL 120)
    • [FONT="Arial"]General Psychology (PSYCH 100)
    • [FONT="Arial"]Human Development (Developmental Psychology of the Life Span) (PSYCH 150) 1 course
    • [FONT="Arial"]Nutrition (NFS 141)
    • [FONT="Arial"]A Genetics course is required to apply. Genome Biology (BIOL 105) - to be offered at Hunter College beginning Fall 2013
    [FONT="Arial"]The other major difference is undergraduates seeking admission to the "generic" RN program must have completed 60 credits before submitting their application for entry, ABSN students OTOH have no such requirement.

    OTOH The College of Mount Saint Vincent's ABSN has some what easier requirements for entry: http://www.mountsaintvincent.edu/6437.htm
  7. Visit  alicia125 profile page
    3
    I think the biggest challenge in allowing different levels of education having the same license there is a lack of respect from other professions when it comes to nursing. I think it is important to have one standard which should ultimately be BSN. The silliness in this argument is that people take this fact personal...I think ADNs are excellent....well prepared and have great clinical skills. At this point it's important to advance and excel in the nursing profession and balance things out....so this argument can just go away!

    Sent from my iPhone using allnurses.com
    TriciaJ, mariebailey, and NurseGuyBri like this.
  8. Visit  NurseGuyBri profile page
    0
    alicia125- so beautifully put! You made the point I've been trying to make but couldn't find the words!
  9. Visit  alicia125 profile page
    0
    Quote from NurseGuyBri
    alicia125- so beautifully put! You made the point I've been trying to make but couldn't find the words!
    Thanks NurseGuyBri!

    Sent from my iPhone using allnurses.com
  10. Visit  subee profile page
    1
    Quote from Esme12
    I agree.......Isn't that what an "accelerated BSN" is? You already have a 4 year degree in something else.......therefore you can be called a 4 year degree nurse after a 2 year education (because you already spent your money on fluff extraneous courses).

    A
    \re they "better than" another nurse with an ADN 2 year education? Frankly...no.
    Oh Geez. Here we go again. A college education is fluffy and extraneous. Let's just keep cranking them out every 2 years so that they become expendable.
    kabfighter likes this.
  11. Visit  gaonsi profile page
    1
    Quote from tavskeez
    I'm a recent Bachelors of Science educated Nurse in California. Before even applying to the clinical portion of Nursing i took Anatomy and Physiology I & II, a Philosophy series, a Psychology series, Pharmacology, an entire chemistry series before O-chem, Microbiology, Botany, Zoology, an entire English series, an entire Humanities series, Statistics, Human Development, Cell Physiology, Developmental Biology, General Ecology, and Mammalogy.....before taking one single nursing class.

    This education allows me to attend a Masters program if i so desire, or perhaps a PhD program if i one day feel that i can give back by educating and transitioning students into our amazing field. I will never feel ashamed for this education. In fact, it is one of the highest sources of pride in my life.

    I graduated in December 2012 and was offered a position late January 2013 with a starting pay of $42.90/hr. I am scared out of my mind. Will i be the best nurse on the floor? No, i wont even pretend to believe I'm more knowledgeable than the CNA with one day of experience. But what i do know is that i have the tenacity and gumption of sticking out college for five years and graduating with honors. I know that i mastered a didactic curriculum of nursing theory and skill. I know that wherever i go i will succeed. Whether this is intrinsic to my personality or a product of my education, i do not know.

    Lets keep advancing.
    Well said!!!
    subee likes this.
  12. Visit  gaonsi profile page
    1
    Quote from NurseGuyBri
    MOM To 4 - I completely agree with you, well said! I do want to add a few things to this discussion. I'm concerned that people are too stuck on the letters. LET IT GO. RN is the only set of letters that matters right now. That being said, the different programs were created for reasons, and now it's time to consolidate. There is nothing wrong with anyone in the field right now who has their RN to be an RN. But, going forward, things need to change. Why? Because nurses are being popped out like pills in a LTC Med cart... I mean for real, all over the place. POP. pop. PoP. pOp. Nurse nurse nurse nurse nurse nurse. It's time to realign ourselves. We *CANNOT* leave our fellows behind, however. We have to allow those who are experience to continue to be experienced, no matter how they obtained their nursing IN THE PAST. Change is about moving forward. From here on out, we have to go FORWARD. Stop going back!! My old boss is an ADN. So what? She was great and she works as a consultant AND SHE DESERVES IT!! :-) My new boss is a BSN. He's great. He makes good money and? HE DESERVES IT. I'm a DIPLOMA RN with a degree in something non-nursing. I'm great. Guess what, I DESERVE IT. I am in a BSN program. Not because I want to outshine the ADN or Diploma- it's because I want to learn more. That is it!
    All of this being said, compared to other professions, we have to change if we want to stay up. A 2 year degree is a vocational degree. It's a practical degree - An associate of a professional. I'm not putting any ADN's down, I'm saying that is what an Associates Degree is designed for. That's why it's an ASSOCIATES. Can't change that, it is what it is... Bachelor's degree is an entry-level BACHELOR - one who is ready to run, wet behind the ears but full of base theory. A starting professional. That's why it's a BACHELOR's degree. Masters- You've mastered your subject. I could keep going. So, why is the associate degree- the vocational school prepared degree, not for a LPN? The bachelor, the professional, an RN? Makes sense to me. Coming from someone who is a diploma RN, you have to know that I'm not about being better or worse than anyone who IS ALREADY A NURSE. I think we need to stop going back and start going forward. Sorry about the long winded message, I hope the idea gets through.
    Boom! Agreed and well articulated.
    sallyrnrrt likes this.
  13. Visit  redhead_NURSE98! profile page
    1
    Quote from subee
    Oh Geez. Here we go again. A college education is fluffy and extraneous.
    It is. I can't believe anyone who went to college would disagree that they took fluffy and extraneous courses. Like I needed fine arts to be a paralegal, lawyer, accountant, doctor? Please argue that I needed it so that I could "talk up" with similarly educated people, so I can show you a whole butt ton of people who seem to be doing just fine without it.
    sallyrnrrt likes this.


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