NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 24

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from michellebsn
    OOps i guess I did hit a nerve.The nurses at the level one trauma center where i work can tell you how much they do and the autonomy they have. my favorite doc even says that two doctors barely equal one good nurse. one thing is for sure mention Hillary and there is always a reaction. As for bachelors or masters degrees you cite majors which traditionally will not get you a good-paying job. Even some science majors don't pay well. Other do but That is not my point, ALL nurses are underpaid . i just don't understand this animosity for BSN's....we work just as hard and take the same boards. I just know we don't need to be fighting amongst ourselves. I can only speak for here but on the 1900-0700 ER shift it's the nurses who pull most of the weight. I know some great docs also, my point was that nurse do a lot of what doctors used to do, especially in some areas like the ER. I do love your outsourcing plan
    No you didn't hit a nerve with "Hillary", etc.

    You hit a nerve by denigrating another group of professionals, in an effort to elevate what we do....using assumptions that have little bearing in fact, and that have been used against RNs at times.

    Do nurses do many activities that MDs have "owned" in the past? Certainly. Do MDs know do amazing things with technologies that were not even perceived of 2, 5, 10 years ago? Are lives saved now that would have been lost 2, 5, 10, 20 years ago? Yes.

    It still does not mean that RNs are doing MD's work. Our work has advanced, just as their work has advanced. Just like an electrician does things that would have been an engineer's job in prior years. Much like CNAs that now do things that were not part of their job 20 years ago.

    And as far as autonomy, it is present to a certain extent on all floors, not just the ER. It still does not mean that we are doing the MD's job, anymore than a nursing aide is doing the DON's job.

    There is no inherit dislike of BSNs. The problem comes when nurses (BSNs and ADNs) denigrate each other based on preconceived notions of 2 vs 4 year programs, with little basis in fact. Much like when one professional denigrates another, saying that they do 80% of their job, without recognizing the not so obvious contributions that are not as tangible.

    And what outsourcing plan are you referring to?
  2. by   michellebsn
    Quote from caroladybelle
    No you didn't hit a nerve with "Hillary", etc.

    You hit a nerve by denigrating another group of professionals, in an effort to elevate what we do....using assumptions that have little bearing in fact, and that have been used against RNs at times.

    Do nurses do many activities that MDs have "owned" in the past? Certainly. Do MDs know do amazing things with technologies that were not even perceived of 2, 5, 10 years ago? Are lives saved now that would have been lost 2, 5, 10, 20 years ago? Yes.

    It still does not mean that RNs are doing MD's work. Our work has advanced, just as their work has advanced. Just like an electrician does things that would have been an engineer's job in prior years. Much like CNAs that now do things that were not part of their job 20 years ago.

    And as far as autonomy, it is present to a certain extent on all floors, not just the ER. It still does not mean that we are doing the MD's job, anymore than a nursing aide is doing the DON's job.

    There is no inherit dislike of BSNs. The problem comes when nurses (BSNs and ADNs) denigrate each other based on preconceived notions of 2 vs 4 year programs, with little basis in fact. Much like when one professional denigrates another, saying that they do 80% of their job, without recognizing the not so obvious contributions that are not as tangible.

    And what outsourcing plan are you referring to?
    First of all I did not mean to denigrate MDs or any other medical professionals. A big MEA CULPA there. I should have stated this differently obviously, I didn't. I meant that as far as patient contact and care it is nurses who spend 80% of time with the patients, working up care plans,dealing with family dynamics, etc.20 or more years ago MDs spent more time with patients but time and increased responsibilities have changed that. My mother and one of my aunts were both nurses and nursing was a lot different for them. We do so much more than nurses used to do. MDs also do new and more complex jobs.What they do has increased in complexity and they work hard.I had to drop out of med school at UCSF in third year because i made the Mistake( a big one) of getting married and then a son came along. So i waited and time passed and i decided i wanted to be a nurse because of the hands on patient care. I apologize to all who think that i am putting down doctors in order to elevate the status of nurses. Again this was not my intention. health care is in crisis nad the paradigm is shifting as to certain responsibilities. My original intent was to point out how absurd this NY proposal is. as far as Hillary goes .She is not my first choice for president. She does seem to go with the prevailing winds and cover all sides of an issue. Personally i would prefer Al Gore , Mark Warner, or Wesley Clark, or for that matter anyone who takes a stand and believes in their convictions. So excuse the ignorance of a new nurse. I've been schooled.....perhaps i spoke without thinking because of an incident on the job precipitated by a doctor who was too arrogant to listen to what we were telling her about a patient. She didn't listen and the patient had an unfortunate outcome. i appreciate the input and will learn not to just vent without chilling out a bit first.i totally agree with your second paragraph. That is what i was trying to say but left out how much MDs do and how much more complex their jobs have become also. The outsourcing i was referring to was your wish for mrs. B and C's jobs to be outsourced. Anyway i do apologize if i dissed anyone or any profession. :selfbonk:
  3. by   DnNC RN
    What gives? I am a RN with my ADN. I have a friend that is working on her BSN and the only difference will be the fact that she has to take more BS (hence the BSN) classes. The nursing side of things is the same. 2 years of nursing classes, clinicals etc.... With that said why say in order to work as a RN you have to go longer and take classes that have basically no affect on what kind of nurse you are? If they add more actual nursing classes to the BSN program then ok require it otherwise leave it alone. Book knowledge on subjects that are totally useless means you have more time and money not that your a better nurse.


    A RN that wants his masters.
  4. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Education is NEVER a waste of time or "BS". I will never believe that. I just wish we could all stop denigrating one another's choices made regarding entry to professional nursing and work together here.
  5. by   michellebsn
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Education is NEVER a waste of time or "BS". I will never believe that. I just wish we could all stop denigrating one another's choices made regarding entry to professional nursing and work together here.
    I agree which is why i posted to this originally. like I said we all take the same boards. WE DO need to work together. As far as the BSN choice. There are differences like extended programs in transcultural nursing which in this state is NOT a waste considering the diversity of cultures and the cultural sensitivity required to treat patients with different belief systems. There is also an extensive gerontology program which considering the aging population is essential for the aging baby boomers. And Clinical hours that go with them. I don't know what BSN program the person's friend goes to who posted that " the BS in BSN means BS". Anyway, apparently not all BSN programs are the same and I think that more experience, and by that I mean not just "useless book-learning" in areas of therapeutic communication, sensitivity and knowing how to relate to patients from different cultures( 90 clinical hours there alone )including trips to Indian reservations to provide care ( one example), as well the the gerontology we got have made me a better nurse.You get out of the programs what you put in. I for one don't have "more money and time to waste". I worked as an ER tech and got student loans and grants and scholarships. It wasn't a pleasure cruise! What i did get was a heck of a good education..... .SO ...Can't we all just get along. :yeahthat: :flowersfo
    Last edit by michellebsn on Mar 4, '06
  6. by   michellebsn
    Quote from DnNC RN
    What gives? I am a RN with my ADN. I have a friend that is working on her BSN and the only difference will be the fact that she has to take more BS (hence the BSN) classes. The nursing side of things is the same. 2 years of nursing classes, clinicals etc.... With that said why say in order to work as a RN you have to go longer and take classes that have basically no affect on what kind of nurse you are? If they add more actual nursing classes to the BSN program then ok require it otherwise leave it alone. Book knowledge on subjects that are totally useless means you have more time and money not that your a better nurse.


    A RN that wants his masters.
    In order to get the masters you need the BSN.......there is nothing wrong with more education. That is why there are CME's. Not all BSN programs are the same if all your friend gets is more book-learning but no clinical experience to go with it.As for more time and money....try no time, no money, and no social life for 4-5 years. :smackingf
  7. by   fleagirl13
    Professionalism lies more in a person's behavior than the letters after their name. When at work, I look like a professional and I act like a professional. I have been mistaken for the head nurse, RN, supervisor etc. many times. Alas, I was "only the LPN" (and incidentally, one of the only staff members with a Bachelors [in Management]) I will be finishing my RN studies in a couple months...then on to the Master's!
    Everyone takes the same state boards and an ADN is a great place to start. These days - there are so many online programs, distance learning, non-traditional, weekend options etc. etc. etc. Many hospitals offer generous educational benefits - it will soon be hard to come up with a reason not to go on. I learned (remember - I "only an LPN") that each nurse has a responsibility to their patients and the profession to realize that the learning in nursing does not stop with the state boards, but really only starts there. ...might as well get that piece of paper and be done with it....
  8. by   CseMgr1
    Thank God my state grandfathered in us defunct Diploma RN's back in 1989, when the last of our hospital schools of nursing closed their doors for good. I would have been a dead duck if they hadn't. I found out years later when I enrolled in one of the state-supported universities to work on my B.S.N. that they would not accept ANY of the nursing courses I had taken. The reason? The private Baptist school I graduated from was considered to be a non-accredited school as far as my state's university system went. I dropped out and haven't looked back, for I didn't feel like I needed to be retaught how to empty a bedpan.
  9. by   michellebsn
    Quote from fleagirl13
    Professionalism lies more in a person's behavior than the letters after their name. When at work, I look like a professional and I act like a professional. I have been mistaken for the head nurse, RN, supervisor etc. many times. Alas, I was "only the LPN" (and incidentally, one of the only staff members with a Bachelors [in Management]) I will be finishing my RN studies in a couple months...then on to the Master's!
    Everyone takes the same state boards and an ADN is a great place to start. These days - there are so many online programs, distance learning, non-traditional, weekend options etc. etc. etc. Many hospitals offer generous educational benefits - it will soon be hard to come up with a reason not to go on. I learned (remember - I "only an LPN") that each nurse has a responsibility to their patients and the profession to realize that the learning in nursing does not stop with the state boards, but really only starts there. ...might as well get that piece of paper and be done with it....
    you are so right. It really all comes down to the patient. When i entered this profession I knew it would be one of lifelong learning because in this field advances can come so quickly and there is always more to learn.I am lucky that the hospital i work at does pay at least half of the costs for RN-BSN, LPN/RNBSN. It isn't how we talk the talk/ it's how we walk the walk......anyway Congrats! :spin:
  10. by   grandma_chuckie
    Quote from SMK1
    haven't they done this in some midwestern state? does anyone know how it has worked out? is the shortage more severe in that area? has pay gone up? job satisfaction? just wondering about this.....Also any canadians who have been working under the new BSN only statute what are your thoughts?
    I am from that midwest state of North Dakota. And no, it didn't work. We too have a nursing shortage, though not as bad as some states. The BSN requirement was dropped after about a 16-17 year requirement. It did not help in any respect. The pay was not better, jobs did not differentiate whether you were a 2, 3, or 4 yr RN. All it did was frustrate the nurses. Those here in school were required to be in the BSN program, but nurses from other states and Canada were able to work here without being a BSN, needing only to be "working" on it, which meant they could take 1 course a semester and take however long they wanted, usually not staying very long. Only someone sitting in an office somewhere could think this works better.
  11. by   cachejo
    Well, being a 2 year RN from NYS who is currently working on a BSN degree, I really don't understand why the state would be requiring this. We come out of both programs and still have to start from the bottom up, because with either a 2 year degree or a 4 year degree, you still have no clinical experience. The only reason I am going back for my BSN, is that I would like to do more management type work, and most employers require that you have a BSN. I am proud of my 2 year degree and I have learned a lot in that program. But, life actually makes it hard to go back and get that BSN. I work full time, have a young daughter and I am a single mother. You know, it's all good that employers reimburse you or help with tuition towards furthering your education. My problem is, my employer doesn't give me the time I need to take classes. I go to 2 classes a night, well after work ends, but being a homecare nurse, it doesn't seem as though my day ends. Being on-call for a week at a time, working weekends, and patients that call after hours, not to mention endless loads of paperwork, because I can't finish it in my 8 hour day, because we see more patients than we can handle. I would really like to see how this one plays out in NY because it will affect me personally.
  12. by   subee
    Quote from michellebsn
    I agree which is why i posted to this originally. like I said we all take the same boards. WE DO need to work together. As far as the BSN choice. There are differences like extended programs in transcultural nursing which in this state is NOT a waste considering the diversity of cultures and the cultural sensitivity required to treat patients with different belief systems. There is also an extensive gerontology program which considering the aging population is essential for the aging baby boomers. And Clinical hours that go with them. I don't know what BSN program the person's friend goes to who posted that " the BS in BSN means BS". Anyway, apparently not all BSN programs are the same and I think that more experience, and by that I mean not just "useless book-learning" in areas of therapeutic communication, sensitivity and knowing how to relate to patients from different cultures( 90 clinical hours there alone )including trips to Indian reservations to provide care ( one example), as well the the gerontology we got have made me a better nurse.You get out of the programs what you put in. I for one don't have "more money and time to waste". I worked as an ER tech and got student loans and grants and scholarships. It wasn't a pleasure cruise! What i did get was a heck of a good education..... .SO ...Can't we all just get along. :yeahthat: :flowersfo
    You've made excellent points. When you're not well educated, you "don't know what you don't know." We spend more time checking out a piano teacher's credentials than those of the person who is taking care of our critically ill children. Nursing will always be cheap to hospital administrators until we have nurses with at least as much education as a teacher. What's the rub? With the proposed law in New York, the ADN is still a way into nursing for most people (and hence more opportunities for minorities) but you have 10 WHOLE MORE YEARS to earn a measly 30 credits. We need more people in nursing who don't gripe about having to get more education!
  13. by   michellebsn
    thank you! Sometimes when the future comes knocking it's not an easy thing.I am told that a similar law proposed here in Hawaii split the Hawaii Nurses Association apart. It is unfortunate because it causes us to fight amongst each other when we should be fighting for better pay, hours, and safe, workable, nurse to patient ratios.
    Aloha! :wink2:

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