NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 21

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   lindarn
    Quote from irishnurse67
    I didn't know my post would incite such an angry response. All I'm saying is that bedside/clinical experience is the best way to become a better nurse, NOT the only way.
    Then why don't other health care professionals look at higher education the way nurses do? Other health care professionals look at education as a step up, not a step down, or a waste of time. They are taught how to translate their higher education into higher pay, and more prestige. They are given the tools to assist them in this goal.

    Nurses, on the other hand continue to find/make roadblocks to higher education. When pharmacists went to a doctorate as entry into practice the hospitals here started an in house doctorate program to bring the pharmacists, who has only masters degrees, up to the education level that was now required. And I am sure that there were pharmacists who had family/personal obligations, as nurses do, but managed to find a way to accomplish this education goal. The difference is that it was required of them, with out choice, and the pharmacists, and the pharmacists demanded it of the hospitals.

    Nurses need to demand the hospitals have on site RN to BSN classes, parterned with a local college. They did it in California where I used to work, and the classes were held in the hospital. Nurses need to make education important and get on the same page as other health care professionals. We do not need continued split education requirements, and a lower entry into practice with LPN/LVNs. We need a unified body. NURSES are dividing themselves with different entries into practice, and allowing conquering, by the hospitals. I fully support grandfathering in all Diploma nurses, and ADNs

    Of course the hospitals take advantage and don't value a BSN. If they did, they would have to pay us more for a BSN, and they know that nurses would demand higher pay for their higher degree. That is why they don't encourage or reward a BSN. A unified body of nursing is the last thing that hospitals want. It is so obvious I do not understand how others cannot see this. It is the same thing with paying higher salary for critical care nurses, and other areas that require a much higher level of practice that med surg. Don't cardiologist charge more than GPs do?

    As for clinical experience being more important than a four year college, that is where a one year internship is needed. Nurses continue to validate their self worth and self inportance, by demanding that a new grad be able to hit the ground running the day after they graduate. No other profession turns its new members out without an internship.This allows them to learn the hands on skills that are needed to effectively function in the real world. This would reduce the "sticker shock" effect that hits too many new grads, and causes burn out among new grads. College is where you learn the background knowledge to build on in your nursing practice. It is not the place to learn the finer points, nuts and bolts, and working knowledge, to be able to successfully navigate the profession. An internship with a (willing) preceptor to help them navigate the waters is what is needed. The preceptor should have the ability to teach, want to teach the new grads, and be a mentor that the new grads can rely on. Too many preceptors are placed in a role they don't want, and take it out on the individual they are orienting.

    Nurses bear alot of the responsiblity for what nursing has become. Only when nurses turn to the same tools that other health care professionals have used will nursing be cured. As it stands now, nursing is a profession that is dying from the neglect of its members. Nursing is being de skilled, an de professionalized inch by inch. I will again state what should be obvious to everyone involved- hospitals want to get rid of ALL PROFESSIONAL NURSES. Their goals is to make a health care of the minimally educated, unlicensed personnel, for a public that is increasingly older, and sicker, with a mulitude of health care ailments. The bean counters are looking at the big picture, and they are trying to cut their future losses by pressing for the de- skilling of health care. And nurses are allowing it to happen by fighting a unified, educated workforce who, in the 21st Century, and by choice it seems, remain powerless and invisible.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  2. by   irishnurse67
    Quote from lindarn
    Then why don't other health care professionals look at higher education the way nurses do? Other health care professionals look at education as a step up, not a step down, or a waste of time. They are taught how to translate their higher education into higher pay, and more prestige. They are given the tools to assist them in this goal.

    Nurses, on the other hand continue to find/make roadblocks to higher education. When pharmacists went to a doctorate as entry into practice the hospitals here started an in house doctorate program to bring the pharmacists, who has only masters degrees, up to the education level that was now required. And I am sure that there were pharmacists who had family/personal obligations, as nurses do, but managed to find a way to accomplish this education goal. The difference is that it was required of them, with out choice, and the pharmacists, and the pharmacists demanded it of the hospitals.

    Nurses need to demand the hospitals have on site RN to BSN classes, parterned with a local college. They did it in California where I used to work, and the classes were held in the hospital. Nurses need to make education important and get on the same page as other health care professionals. We do not need continued split education requirements, and a lower entry into practice with LPN/LVNs. We need a unified body. NURSES are dividing themselves with different entries into practice, and allowing conquering, by the hospitals. I fully support grandfathering in all Diploma nurses, and ADNs

    Of course the hospitals take advantage and don't value a BSN. If they did, they would have to pay us more for a BSN, and they know that nurses would demand higher pay for their higher degree. That is why they don't encourage or reward a BSN. A unified body of nursing is the last thing that hospitals want. It is so obvious I do not understand how others cannot see this. It is the same thing with paying higher salary for critical care nurses, and other areas that require a much higher level of practice that med surg. Don't cardiologist charge more than GPs do?

    As for clinical experience being more important than a four year college, that is where a one year internship is needed. Nurses continue to validate their self worth and self inportance, by demanding that a new grad be able to hit the ground running the day after they graduate. No other profession turns its new members out without an internship.This allows them to learn the hands on skills that are needed to effectively function in the real world. This would reduce the "sticker shock" effect that hits too many new grads, and causes burn out among new grads. College is where you learn the background knowledge to build on in your nursing practice. It is not the place to learn the finer points, nuts and bolts, and working knowledge, to be able to successfully navigate the profession. An internship with a (willing) preceptor to help them navigate the waters is what is needed. The preceptor should have the ability to teach, want to teach the new grads, and be a mentor that the new grads can rely on. Too many preceptors are placed in a role they don't want, and take it out on the individual they are orienting.

    Nurses bear alot of the responsiblity for what nursing has become. Only when nurses turn to the same tools that other health care professionals have used will nursing be cured. As it stands now, nursing is a profession that is dying from the neglect of its members. Nursing is being de skilled, an de professionalized inch by inch. I will again state what should be obvious to everyone involved- hospitals want to get rid of ALL PROFESSIONAL NURSES. Their goals is to make a health care of the minimally educated, unlicensed personnel, for a public that is increasingly older, and sicker, with a mulitude of health care ailments. The bean counters are looking at the big picture, and they are trying to cut their future losses by pressing for the de- skilling of health care. And nurses are allowing it to happen by fighting a unified, educated workforce who, in the 21st Century, and by choice it seems, remain powerless and invisible.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    I whole-heartedly agree that nurses find all kinds of excuses not to go back to school. If I can do it while working full-time and being a mom to three kids, I think almost anyone can do it. Of course, I'll admit that I hate school, but sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do! I certainly hope they never phase out nurses all together. That's a scary thought. And I wish my hospital took part in helping us more in getting our BSNs! I'd even settle for a LPN to RN course for the LPNs where I work b/c some of the LPNs we have are incredible and there's one who has tought me more in the 7 yrs I've been a nurse than anyone else! Also, just a question: My hospital has this CCN course for RNs (ADN or BSN nurses are eligible) that the hospital pays for. I was thinking of going for it. Should I do it after my bachelor's or before?
  3. by   lindarn
    Quote from irishnurse67
    I whole-heartedly agree that nurses find all kinds of excuses not to go back to school. If I can do it while working full-time and being a mom to three kids, I think almost anyone can do it. Of course, I'll admit that I hate school, but sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do! I certainly hope they never phase out nurses all together. That's a scary thought. And I wish my hospital took part in helping us more in getting our BSNs! I'd even settle for a LPN to RN course for the LPNs where I work b/c some of the LPNs we have are incredible and there's one who has tought me more in the 7 yrs I've been a nurse than anyone else! Also, just a question: My hospital has this CCN course for RNs (ADN or BSN nurses are eligible) that the hospital pays for. I was thinking of going for it. Should I do it after my bachelor's or before?
    You should take advantage of the on line programs. I wish that I had them when I went back to for my BSN. I was originally a diploma grad. It took me six years to finish. I wasn't married, but I was working full time three 12 hour shifts a week. I had no one to help me, so it was still difficult to take care of things and go to school. It would have been so much easier! But since it makes it so much more convenient, there is almost no excuse now for nurses to not be able to earn a BSN. You can arrange the clinical experience at local hospitals, or clinics, or even at the hospital where you work. It can be done.

    As I stated above, I fully support grandfathering in Diploma and ADN nurses, and providing, what I knew was the "one plus program", for LPN/LVNs. to earn there RN.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  4. by   betsy1963
    Ontario has a requirement where new graduates have to have their BSN.The rest of us are grandfathered. I have mixed feelings about this. While I appreciate the value of a degree, the downside is that there will be a shortage of nurses here that will be a lot worse since there are so many nurses retiring in the next 10 years or so and there aren't as many nurses graduating. This is worse in less populated areas as many "older" people would bite the bullet to go back to school for 2 years at the local college, but won't up and move to a larger centre for 4 years. The younger people tend to go away to university and don't come back. The hospitals in my area give no help to go back to get your BSN. If you're lucky you may get to go to class every week if you have enough vacation time.
  5. by   cenote
    The reasoning that is commonly used to suggest that all nurses have BSN's is that the degreed nurse has a wider educational experience and has proven that he/she has the ability and intelligence to earn a bachelor's. Also, it is theorized that the BSN designation would garner higher respect for nurses. But there are many nurses out there, like me, who have a previous unrelated bachelor's degree AND an RN. I saw no need to "further my education" with a BSN when I decided to enter the nursing profession nor did I care to add another year to my time spent in school taking courses like Art Appreciation and Computer Science Basics. With a bachelor's and a few semesters into a MBA I felt educated enough to settle for an ADN.
    Those that promulgate the need for a BSN as necessary to good nursing practice are elitists. It has been proven that the studies that tried to foster this belief were flawed (read the articles concerning this on the NOADN, National Organization of ADN). If anything needs to be studied further in school to practice nursing it is NOT philosophy, economics or computers, but greater clinical time or a MUCH better hospital based training program than the limp preceptorships that presently exist.
    And remember, there IS NO NURSING SHORTAGE . . . just nurses that have left the profession due to the conditions of the job. Improve the ratios, bill separately for nursing services and recognize that we are not there to have the corporations make money on our backs and nurses would return in droves. As long as these leeches use our skills till they break us...as long as nursing schools still churn out the naive...as long as we remain silent and take it...there will be a "nursing shortage". BSN vs ADN is NOT where our energies need to be spent...
  6. by   zenman
    Quote from irishnurse67
    I didn't know my post would incite such an angry response. All I'm saying is that bedside/clinical experience is the best way to become a better nurse, NOT the only way.

    I'm not angry Irish...it's such a wasteful emotion
  7. by   NephroBSN
    Quote from brian
    But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

    New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

    Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

    Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0...IOG_news.shtml

    Old news. I heard that in 1979. Hasn't been implemented yet. And there was a nursing surplus then.
  8. by   ^Ash^
    Quote from PeninsulaRN
    I agree, and frankly I'm disappointed at the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread. RNs are the least educated members of the healthcare team. I think it would do a lot to improve the solidarity and unity of nurses were there an entry level educational requirement such as a BSN (no more ADNs are just as good as BSNs and LPNs are just as good as RNs... ad nauseum).
    I'm not going to get into the argument of why a baccalaureate education is preferable to an associate's, that should be clear.
    Its a shame that nurses hold education in such low regard. I'm not saying that some ADN or diploma prepared nurses aren't great, competent, professional nurses... they are. However, I think the profession needs to move forward out of a blue collar, task-oriented hourly position into a salaried and professional one.
    But then, my views on salary vs hourly wages and unions vs non-unions are for another thread.
    I completely agree with the statment that you made on this topic that is so endless. Education is priceless - and we all should be exposed to different subjects (sociology, political science, linguistics etc) and not only limited to just nursing courses.
  9. by   tridil2000
    Quote from ^Ash^
    I completely agree with the statment that you made on this topic that is so endless. Education is priceless - and we all should be exposed to different subjects (sociology, political science, linguistics etc) and not only limited to just nursing courses.
    i wholeheartedly agree. would people accept their child's teacher with more 'classroom' time and no formal degree?

    i too find it very sad that some nurses do not aspire to get a bachelor's degree..... saying they don't need it. funny, that's how drs, hospital administrators and pharmicists see us too, not needing a college degree to be 'good.' why would we 'need' to be college educated like them? god forbid! we certainly don't matter, right? let's just sit here, the lowest on the education chain, and complain that no one takes our concerns and issues seriously!
  10. by   burn out
    personally i am tired of being expected to be a professional and getting paid like a technician. Perhaps if the boards of nursing would get their acts together and make an entry level as a BSN and grandfather all the current
    ADN s then perhaps nursing could be looked at more as a profession deserving a higher wage instead of a womans profession controlled by hospitals, doctors, where their own members cant even agree on what they are, what they should be and most importantly where they are going. For years we have heard BSN for entry level, well it is sure time to put up or shut up about it.
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Making entry level as BSN not a bad idea. Making it happen quite another thing---esp in areas where 70% or more of the nursing programs are currently ADN programs. It's a logistical nightmare to make it happen. That is why it has not as yet.
  12. by   mchrisrn
    I work 48 hours in two weeks....only 4 days...12 hour shifts though that turn into like 16 hours...very stressful work...my hospital pays 500 dollars a year for me to get my bsn!!!....if you are a nursing student interested in working there...or a newly hired rn...they will pay 5-10,000 a year for you to further your education with a bsn OR msn...but since Ive worked there 25 years...i get 500 dollars a year..with two kids still in college would YOU go back for a degree?????...
  13. by   lindarn
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Making entry level as BSN not a bad idea. Making it happen quite another thing---esp in areas where 70% or more of the nursing programs are currently ADN programs. It's a logistical nightmare to make it happen. That is why it has not as yet.
    That is what on line programs were designed for. I wish that they were available when I went back to school 25 years ago. And nurses can push for on site BSN programs. They had that in the hospital I worked at in California. Nurses took classes in the hospital. The professors were from Cal State Long Beach.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, WA

close