BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 12

by MunoRN 26,411 Views | 240 Comments

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative. About 3 years ago I sat... Read More


  1. 0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    Look at history. Prostitutes were practically plucked off the streets and transformed into nurses without any education! Furthermore, they were "successful" for the standards of that time. So, you could argue that NO education is necessary to function as a nurse, lawyer, or anything else for the sake of argument.

    These prostitutes you speak of were not nurses in the sense of today's nurse. Sure they were taught some basic lifesaving skills, and they had the title, but their technical expertise would not even match the EMT-B of today (BTW, the education commitment to become an EMT-B takes 1 semester at a community college to obtain). NOT. EVEN. CLOSE!!!
  2. 0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    My grandparents had jobs that didn't require an education when they started, but toward the end of their careers, the company wouldn't even let you in the door without a degree. Why did they start requiring a degree when a man with an 8th grade education was literally deemed one of the best employees in the company? Maybe because times have changed, education is more attainable, and there's no excuse NOT to have the most educated, motivated professionals in the field?
    I would have to know what exactly it was your grand parents did to really respond to this. What generally applies though is that when technology and methods of commerce or services change, new education must be obtained to keep up with them. And someday I hope this will be true in Nursing, as it will broaden the nurse's Scope of Practice. Again, when this happens and more education becomes necessary to handle these new responsibilities, then I will be all for making this extra education a requirement. But at this time, on Nov 19 2012, it is not necessary, and should not be forced on aspiring entry level (there' that term again) Nurses just because it sounds good.
  3. 0
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED
    These prostitutes you speak of were not nurses in the sense of today's nurse. Sure they were taught some basic lifesaving skills, and they had the title, but their technical expertise would not even match the EMT-B of today (BTW, the education commitment to become an EMT-B takes 1 semester at a community college to obtain). NOT. EVEN. CLOSE!!!
    I didn't say they were a nurse in the same sense of today's nurse.

    That's what we're talking about - change!

    Asking why a BSN should be an entry level requirement is the exact same debate I'm sure many people had when they made the ASN an entry level requirement.

    Furthermore, the reasons are the same.
  4. 0
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. In fact, I don't think ANY answer will matter because you have your opinion, which is fine, and that's not going to change.
    I'm looking for a justification to spend an extra two years and 10's of thousands of dollars to get a job that really doesn't require this sacrifice to be carried out, and carried out well.

    I am completely capable of changing my mind. The thing is it takes real evidence and not empty platitudes to make me do so. On another post you made me see things a little differently. It's possible you can here too, but I need more than what you're giving us here to do it...
  5. 0
    [QUOTE=PRICHARILLAisMISSED;7039804]
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    . And when an ENTRY LEVEL Nurse's Scope of practice encompasses more than an ADN education can match,.
    The evidence which ADN advocates keep trying to sweep under the rug already suggests that it does. Patients with BSN nurses have better outcomes and *significantly* lower mortality rates.

    I know, I know. It's all an accident.
  6. 0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    So, here's a new question.....why do we require any education for nurses? Why not hire prostitutes?

    Just for fun, why do we let women vote? The world still turned without women voters. How about freeing the slaves? The world didn't stop when we had slaves either.
    We require education for today's nurses because of the tremendous responsibilities they carry-and you understand this far better than I. In fact I'm giving up a six figure job just so I can pursue education full time so I can someday get to where you ARE NOW! But as it stands currently (on Nov 19, 2012) the education provided by an ADN seems to be sufficient preparation to shoulder this responsibility.

    Oh, and we let women vote because even though the world still spun when they were not allowed to, a terrible injustice was happening on its surface while it spun. And to say "Why do we LET women vote" is somewhat misleading, as to "Let" someone do anything implies that we had a right to another option. Women should have been able to vote as soon as the concept of voting was implemented. It was one of the deepest travesty's of our history that women had to wait to do ANYTHING that men could do.

    Same thing with freeing the slaves. Slavery was one hell of a dark page in the history of our civilization. While the REAL reasons we stopped it was political, the bottom line is that it was the right thing to do, as it should never have happened to begin with.

    BTW Ntheboat2, I know you're not for these things( slavery and women being denied freedoms), but you threw it out there so I just had to respond
  7. 0
    This "debate" is not a new one. As I mentioned, nurses required zero education at one point in time. Then, there were diploma programs.
    I'm sure when the topic of "phasing out" diploma programs came up, people had these same exact opinions and said, "NEVER!" How many diploma nurses do you see now?

    Then, there's the lovely debate about LPN's being phased out. Of course, every LPN will say that's not true, and it might not be true in other parts of the world, but it is true where I live and in many parts of the US. The hospitals here no longer hires LPNs and the few who are left are working on their RN. They didn't tell LPNs that they had to go and get a higher education....they just quit hiring them.

    What's really the difference between raising the entry level requirement and not hiring those who have a certain degree? Either way, they aren't working, and if they are then they are only working in certain facilities like doctor's offices or LTC.

    The standards for CRNA's are higher, and I'm sure there was a debate about that too and people who said it'll never happen. Now, Nurse Practitioners are next on the list.

    Who knows when it'll happen, but it's only a matter of time.
  8. 0
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED
    We require education for today's nurses because of the tremendous responsibilities they carry-and you understand this far better than I. In fact I'm giving up a six figure job just so I can pursue education full time so I can someday get to where you ARE NOW! But as it stands currently (on Nov 19, 2012) the education provided by an ADN seems to be sufficient preparation to shoulder this responsibility.

    Oh, and we let women vote because even though the world still spun when they were not allowed to, a terrible injustice was happening on its surface while it spun. And to say "Why do we LET women vote" is somewhat misleading, as to "Let" someone do anything implies that we had a right to another option. Women should have been able to vote as soon as the concept of voting was implemented. It was one of the deepest travesty's of our history that women had to wait to do ANYTHING that men could do.

    Same thing with freeing the slaves. Slavery was one hell of a dark page in the history of our civilization. While the REAL reasons we stopped it was political, the bottom line is that it was the right thing to do, as it should never have happened to begin with.

    BTW Ntheboat2, I know you're not for these things( slavery and women being denied freedoms), but you threw it out there so I just had to respond
    Yeeeeah....so that was taken a bit literally. Once again, my point was "progress."

    Times change. Standards become higher. Expectations are raised. It's just the natural progression.

    Graduating high school used to be a big achievement. Kindergarten graduation is on the same level of the "achievement scale" as what high school graduation used to be.

    Graduating college used to be a HUGE achievement. Now, it's pretty much an expectation, at least if you want to be able to support yourself.
  9. 1
    [QUOTE=Ntheboat2;7039829]
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED

    The evidence which ADN advocates keep trying to sweep under the rug already suggests that it does. Patients with BSN nurses have better outcomes and *significantly* lower mortality rates.

    I know, I know. It's all an accident.
    Well, not "Significantly....." More like "Somewhat." Lets not make it more than it is

    And while I pointed this out earlier, I'll do it again-"Those BSN's who had a lower mortality rate than their ADN counterparts also had access to MORE and BETTER rescources to treat their patients with than their ADN counterparts." Now Honestly, do you really thing it was strictly the BSN that made the difference there? Come on now, Ntheboat2....you gotta bend at least a little on that one. You know you do. Say it....SAY IT....!
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
  10. 0
    Actually, the source that I personally read does say *significantly* instead of somewhat.

    "Data show that health care facilities with higher percentages of BSN nurses enjoy better patient outcomes and significantly lower mortality rates. Magnet hospitals are model patient care facilities that typically employ a higher proportion of baccalaureate prepared nurses, 59% BSN as compared to 34% BSN at other hospitals. In several research studies, Marlene Kramer, Linda Aiken and others have found a strong relationship between organizational characteristics and patient outcomes."

    Just a couple more interesting tid-bits from that source:


    "Evidence shows that nursing education level is a factor in patient safety and quality of care. As cited in the report When Care Becomes a Burden released by the Milbank Memorial Fund in 2001, two separate studies conducted in 1996 – one by the state of New York and one by the state of Texas – clearly show that significantly higher levels of medication errors and procedural violations are committed by nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels as compared with the baccalaureate level. These findings are consistent with findings published in the July/August 2002 issue of Nurse Educator magazine that references studies conducted in Arizona, Colorado, Louisiana, Ohio and Tennessee that also found that nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels make the majority of practice-related violations."

    "Chief nurse officers (CNO) in university hospitals prefer to hire nurses who have baccalaureate degrees, and nurse administrators recognize distinct differences in competencies based on education. In a 2001 survey published in the Journal of Nursing Administration, 72% of these directors identified differences in practice between BSN-prepared nurses and those who have an associate degree or hospital diploma, citing stronger critical thinking and leadership skills."

    Once again, this is an age old debate. All I know is that history tends to repeat itself. When it comes down to it, I couldn't care less what the guy beside me does with his education or career. I just think people are fooling themselves by thinking there is no difference between the two or that the standards are not going to be raised. Whether it's next year or 20 years from now, that's the direction it's going. Personally, I think it will be sooner than later considering that NP's and CRNA's are already making the move. Something else people said would never happen.


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