BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it.

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative.

About 3 years ago I sat on a council charged with evaluating and making recommendations on the educational requirements for Nursing. We worked closely with both employers and schools of Nursing to evaluate needs and capabilities and to coordinate the two.

We initially reviewed the evidence, most notably Linda Aiken's work on the relationship between educational level and quality of Nursing care. On the surface her work seems to clearly support the BSN model, however upon closer inspection we could not show that improved Nursing specific outcomes were due to higher proportions of BSN nurses, at least in terms of a BSN being causative rather than just correlative. While her studies did show a relationship between better outcomes and Hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN Nurses, she failed to adequately account for the fact that Hospitals with higher proportions of BSN nurses also have many factors that would be likely to contribute to better outcomes. For instance, predominately BSN hospitals (teaching hospitals) tend to have better staffing ratios, better support systems, better funding, and are more likely to be "early adopters" of practice improvements. Aiken's accounting for the effects of these differences were grossly inadequate. When her data was properly corrected for these differences, there was no clear difference between ADN and BSN prepared Nurses in areas examined.

We then looked at differences in curriculum between ADN and BSN programs and found surprisingly few differences. Pre-requisites varied among both ADN and BSN programs, with the only consistent difference being that BSN programs required a Nutrition class. We had assumed that the Statistics requirement was also a universal difference, but what we found was that this was only different in older ADN programs, newer ADN programs carried the same statistics requirement with some requiring a higher level of statistics than even the top BSN program in the state. In the program itself, the curriculum is closely regulated by both accreditation groups and the State Board, both of which hold the curriculum of both types of program to the same standards, minus the BSN program's additional leadership and community health classes.

Considering the minimal differences between ADN and BSN curriculum, we questioned whether there might be differences related to the 'caliber' of student admitted to each type of program, we were particularly surprised by what we found. Two of the ADN programs in the state required a previous bachelor's degree to even apply, more were considering this. The typical minimum GPA in core prerequisites for competitive entry ADN programs was 3.8, for BSN programs it was 3.6.

The biggest factor was what we would need to do to move to only BSN programs. Our current BSN programs already have a shortage of clinical spots, so expanding our current BSN programs was not an option. The only viable option was to take our ADN programs and simply start calling them BSN programs by adding community health and leadership classes and requiring the additional "general" credits needed to fulfill the credit requirements of a bachelors. To do this, community colleges would have to partner with Universities who would then grant BSN's for a (large) fee. This would essentially mean the only difference between an ADN and BSN would be 8 core credits, about 35 general credits, and about $18,000.

The other concern with limiting RN education opportunities to BSN programs by expanding BSN programs was the demographic makeup of Nursing students. More than half of those currently going into Nursing are "second career" students. These students typically are not in positions where attending a direct BSN program is feasible. In my state, BSN programs are only available in two urban areas. It's much easier for an 18 year old to drop everything and move to one of these two areas than it is for someone who has kids in school, owns a home, has a spouse with an immovable job, etc. As a result we were concerned about the effect such a drastic change in Nursing student demographics might have.

A survey of employers found no glaring preference for BSN prepared Nurses in my state, in fact we were surprised at the number of Hospitals that expressed a preference for ADN new grads as they found their bedside training requirements were less, this was likely due to the limitations in clinical experience in BSN programs. Only one hospital in the state expressed a preference for BSN graduates, although they did not require a BSN, this was the Hospital associated with the state's largest BSN program. They did express that their preference for BSN's was somewhat self-serving; when part of the job market is "BSN-only", it helps maintain demand for a degree that's fairly similar yet typically 400% more expensive than the ADN option. This would seem to shed some light on why "BSN-only" employers are primarily hospitals associated with Universities.

In the end we determined that we could not support the goal of BSN as entry to practice at this time. We did however endorse the concept of BSN-in-10 through ADN to BSN programs. Although we didn't go so far as to advocate BSN-in-10 as a requirement. This was partly due to reviewing North Dakota's failed BSN-in-10 attempt, as well as the demographics involved in the Nursing workforce. The number of experienced Nurses who leave the workforce is a real problem. This attrition often occurs between 5 and 10 years. Adding a requirement that will take additional time as well as cost, in many cases, up to half of their yearly salary would too often serve as the primary factor in a decision to leave Nursing. There are huge advantages to additional schooling after a period of time in the workforce, one could argue advantages that exceed that of direct BSN programs, however it was not felt that the loss of experienced Nurses outweighed those advantages. But when feasible, all ADN Nurses should be actively encouraged to pursue an ADN to BSN.

As a BSN prepared Nurse, I was expecting confirmation that my money was spell spent, and I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, however many of the assumptions I held may have been overstated or just incorrect. For many, direct BSN programs are worth the expense, for other's it's not. What's most important is that students can make an informed decision.

*** I agree with all of your comments but one. You list perfectly good reasons to obtain a BSN and you are right. However the part about "tons of professions require a bachelors degree for ENTRY". I say so what? I could give a damn about how other professions choose to conduct themselves. Much of it is only degree inflation anyway. The diversity brought to nursing through the availabiliety of the local community college nursing program is our strength.

Some people don't consider minimal education and the inability to spell anything as diversity or strength.

Embarrassment? Maybe.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.

I think anyone with minimal education would know that spelling is covered in one's elementary education; after that, the damage is done and improvement of those skills doesn't happen very easily, so slamming on someone with a "community college education" for one misspelled word is sort of silly, if that's what you were doing. So would be a claim that someone with higher degrees is going to have better spelling skills as a result of those higher degrees. I went to law school with someone who graduated in the top 5% that couldn't distinguish between their, they're and there, or you're and your. I can assure you that law school did not improve those skills for her, as I read many post graduate motions of hers and the misspellings were still there. (Or, they were still their. lol)

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Some people don't consider minimal education and the inability to spell anything as diversity or strength.

Embarrassment? Maybe.

LOL, must have been all that fancy book learning in I got at the university BSN program I graduated from. Diversity IS our strength.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I think anyone with minimal education would know that spelling is covered in one's elementary education; after that, the damage is done and improvement of those skills doesn't happen very easily, so slamming on someone with a "community college education" for one misspelled word is sort of silly, if that's what you were doing.

*** Thanks for your comments but for the record I graduated form a well respected state university BSN program.

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.
I think anyone with minimal education would know that spelling is covered in one's elementary education; after that, the damage is done and improvement of those skills doesn't happen very easily, so slamming on someone with a "community college education" for one misspelled word is sort of silly, if that's what you were doing. So would be a claim that someone with higher degrees is going to have better spelling skills as a result of those higher degrees. I went to law school with someone who graduated in the top 5% that couldn't distinguish between their, they're and there, or you're and your. I can assure you that law school did not improve those skills for her, as I read many post graduate motions of hers and the misspellings were still there. (Or, they were still their. lol)

Your point is quite valid. And this is a forum for professional nurses; it is not the classroom, but it is also not the street. Therefor everyone makes some mistakes, but poorly written posts are not as effective. It is extra ironic when poorly written posts defend lower education requirements even if the author has reached a higher level. Of course, I speak only in terms of general perception.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Your point is quite valid. And this is a forum for professional nurses; it is not the classroom, but it is also not the street. Therefor everyone makes some mistakes, but poorly written posts are not as effective. It is extra ironic when poorly written posts defend lower education requirements even if the author has reached a higher level. Of course, I speak only in terms of general perception.

*** This is a very old debating trick. Attack the messenger instead of addressing the argument that has been made. It can be safely assumed the person using this old tactic have run out of valid arguments to support their position.

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.

Yes it is a poor debate tactic if used to knock down the actual argument. I agree. But that isn't what I did. I agreed with the poster saying that higher education has little bearing on spelling.

I was talking in terms of general perception and of irony. In that way, my point is fine.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
*** Thanks for your comments but for the record I graduated form a well respected state university BSN program.

Well at least that kinda proves my point!

You should be thrilled. Speaking of tactics...after several unsuccessful attempts to elicit a response, you got one!

Btw, it wasn't a "one time thing." I just now chose to mention it.

Afterall, this isn't really a debate. People who have a GED will defend a GED. People who have a bachelor's degree in underwater basket weaving and work at a fast food joint will defend their brilliant idea to obtain the basket weaving degree.

The facts speak for themselves. In the end, that's all that really matters.

Now, pick that apart piece by piece, out of context, and have a ball! :up:

Specializes in Critical Care.
Your interpretation of stats is ludicrous. The bias towards BSNs is predominantly new grads though still some towards ADNs, thus looking at an overall RN population is misleading. The new grad stats I posted earlier show a 10% more employed instead of 3% more employed.

Also, where are you getting this idea that there are no clinical placements for more BSN students if ADN programs shut down?

In Denver, ASN programs are losing their placements to BSN programs. In fact, one longtime ASN program shut down last year stating this as a reason.

Many ASN programs are sending their students over 100 miles away to find clinical sites.

With 10+ qualified applicants for every nursing school slot, students will make the sacrifice, as they do now.

While in Denver this is the case, it is not the case everywhere. In the midwest where I live and work ADN's are still able to get jobs and I know several ADN new grad RN's hired by two different hospital systems. There could be more systems taking new ADN's, don't know personally. Where I work the RN's run the gamut from ADN to BSN to direct entry MSN who are currently finishing their NP. About half the staff is planning on getting an NP and leaving bedside care, some have already graduated. Some were able to get jobs easily as an NP, others struggled to find a job. If you think it is hard to get an RN job, I'm sure the NP is even harder as the market is being saturated with half dozen or so colleges offering the NP program.

Where I work we have both ADN and BSN student clinicals from several different schools. Over the years there have been hospital consolidations and even closures in the inner city, coupled with new hospitals being built in the suburbs so jobs are still available.

As far as your neck of the woods, I've heard Colorado is a difficult place to get an RN job with a lot of competition. It really depends where you live and how outgoing you are and who you know!

So...Are we all in agreement that a BSN is only necessary because the hospitals can be picky, or use it as a tie breaker? I mean this discussion has been going on for days now, and not one defender of having a BSN for entry into the Nursing profession has given any reason whatsoever why a BSN should be the minimum requirement. Well again with the exception of "Because the hospitals want it, so there!!"

As a reminder, The OP wrote this article to explain why they decided that an ADN was indeed sufficient education to carry out what is expected as an ENTRY level floor nurse.

So pretty please, with sugar on top with whipped cream and a succulent cherry, "Can ANYONE give a valid reason other than" "Because the hospitals can be picky, or use it as a tie breaker?" or "Because the hospitals want it, so there!!?" that an aspiring ENTRY LEVEL Nurse should go the BSN route vice the ADN route? I will concede that it will be a tie breaker and that YES, it will be preferred over an ADN. But should it be? Does the extra time and money spent to obtain a BSN over an ADN translate to commensurate gains in skill over a new grad ADN, ie does the extra time and money you put in make you a better nurse by enough to justify the time and money investment? Does it make you better at all?

Continuing education, higher education, or whatever you want to call it is the natural progression of every profession known to man!

Look at history. Prostitutes were practically plucked off the streets and transformed into nurses without any education! Furthermore, they were "successful" for the standards of that time. So, you could argue that NO education is necessary to function as a nurse, lawyer, or anything else for the sake of argument.

My grandparents had jobs that didn't require an education when they started, but toward the end of their careers, the company wouldn't even let you in the door without a degree. Why did they start requiring a degree when a man with an 8th grade education was literally deemed one of the best employees in the company? Maybe because times have changed, education is more attainable, and there's no excuse NOT to have the most educated, motivated professionals in the field?

I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. In fact, I don't think ANY answer will matter because you have your opinion, which is fine, and that's not going to change.

So, here's a new question.....why do we require any education for nurses? Why not hire prostitutes?

Just for fun, why do we let women vote? The world still turned without women voters. How about freeing the slaves? The world didn't stop when we had slaves either.

It's called progress. There's your answer.

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