BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it.

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative.

About 3 years ago I sat on a council charged with evaluating and making recommendations on the educational requirements for Nursing. We worked closely with both employers and schools of Nursing to evaluate needs and capabilities and to coordinate the two.

We initially reviewed the evidence, most notably Linda Aiken's work on the relationship between educational level and quality of Nursing care. On the surface her work seems to clearly support the BSN model, however upon closer inspection we could not show that improved Nursing specific outcomes were due to higher proportions of BSN nurses, at least in terms of a BSN being causative rather than just correlative. While her studies did show a relationship between better outcomes and Hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN Nurses, she failed to adequately account for the fact that Hospitals with higher proportions of BSN nurses also have many factors that would be likely to contribute to better outcomes. For instance, predominately BSN hospitals (teaching hospitals) tend to have better staffing ratios, better support systems, better funding, and are more likely to be "early adopters" of practice improvements. Aiken's accounting for the effects of these differences were grossly inadequate. When her data was properly corrected for these differences, there was no clear difference between ADN and BSN prepared Nurses in areas examined.

We then looked at differences in curriculum between ADN and BSN programs and found surprisingly few differences. Pre-requisites varied among both ADN and BSN programs, with the only consistent difference being that BSN programs required a Nutrition class. We had assumed that the Statistics requirement was also a universal difference, but what we found was that this was only different in older ADN programs, newer ADN programs carried the same statistics requirement with some requiring a higher level of statistics than even the top BSN program in the state. In the program itself, the curriculum is closely regulated by both accreditation groups and the State Board, both of which hold the curriculum of both types of program to the same standards, minus the BSN program's additional leadership and community health classes.

Considering the minimal differences between ADN and BSN curriculum, we questioned whether there might be differences related to the 'caliber' of student admitted to each type of program, we were particularly surprised by what we found. Two of the ADN programs in the state required a previous bachelor's degree to even apply, more were considering this. The typical minimum GPA in core prerequisites for competitive entry ADN programs was 3.8, for BSN programs it was 3.6.

The biggest factor was what we would need to do to move to only BSN programs. Our current BSN programs already have a shortage of clinical spots, so expanding our current BSN programs was not an option. The only viable option was to take our ADN programs and simply start calling them BSN programs by adding community health and leadership classes and requiring the additional "general" credits needed to fulfill the credit requirements of a bachelors. To do this, community colleges would have to partner with Universities who would then grant BSN's for a (large) fee. This would essentially mean the only difference between an ADN and BSN would be 8 core credits, about 35 general credits, and about $18,000.

The other concern with limiting RN education opportunities to BSN programs by expanding BSN programs was the demographic makeup of Nursing students. More than half of those currently going into Nursing are "second career" students. These students typically are not in positions where attending a direct BSN program is feasible. In my state, BSN programs are only available in two urban areas. It's much easier for an 18 year old to drop everything and move to one of these two areas than it is for someone who has kids in school, owns a home, has a spouse with an immovable job, etc. As a result we were concerned about the effect such a drastic change in Nursing student demographics might have.

A survey of employers found no glaring preference for BSN prepared Nurses in my state, in fact we were surprised at the number of Hospitals that expressed a preference for ADN new grads as they found their bedside training requirements were less, this was likely due to the limitations in clinical experience in BSN programs. Only one hospital in the state expressed a preference for BSN graduates, although they did not require a BSN, this was the Hospital associated with the state's largest BSN program. They did express that their preference for BSN's was somewhat self-serving; when part of the job market is "BSN-only", it helps maintain demand for a degree that's fairly similar yet typically 400% more expensive than the ADN option. This would seem to shed some light on why "BSN-only" employers are primarily hospitals associated with Universities.

In the end we determined that we could not support the goal of BSN as entry to practice at this time. We did however endorse the concept of BSN-in-10 through ADN to BSN programs. Although we didn't go so far as to advocate BSN-in-10 as a requirement. This was partly due to reviewing North Dakota's failed BSN-in-10 attempt, as well as the demographics involved in the Nursing workforce. The number of experienced Nurses who leave the workforce is a real problem. This attrition often occurs between 5 and 10 years. Adding a requirement that will take additional time as well as cost, in many cases, up to half of their yearly salary would too often serve as the primary factor in a decision to leave Nursing. There are huge advantages to additional schooling after a period of time in the workforce, one could argue advantages that exceed that of direct BSN programs, however it was not felt that the loss of experienced Nurses outweighed those advantages. But when feasible, all ADN Nurses should be actively encouraged to pursue an ADN to BSN.

As a BSN prepared Nurse, I was expecting confirmation that my money was spell spent, and I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, however many of the assumptions I held may have been overstated or just incorrect. For many, direct BSN programs are worth the expense, for other's it's not. What's most important is that students can make an informed decision.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Because the nurse power groups don't believe we have too many nurses and nursing schools. They continue to speculate that there will be a gigantic exodus of nurses who've delayed retirement, a huge influx of people demanding medical care as a result of the ACA, and droves of aging baby boomers overloading the system.

Should any of these things fail to materialize, thousands more new grads will not be able to find jobs but the Tri-Council ("an alliance between the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, the American Nurses Association, the American Organization of Nurse Executives, and the National League for Nursing") still made this statement:

"the Tri-Council is very concerned that diminishing the pipeline of future nurses may put the health of many Americans at risk, particularly those from rural and underserved communities, and leave our healthcare delivery system unprepared to meet the demand for essential nursing services." (bolding added)

I guess it would then seem logical to them that we're facing a faculty shortage. as Geraldine "Polly" Bednash, executive director of the AACN stated in August of this year. Their view is that every person who can qualify for nursing school should be admitted to nursing school.

"more than 76,000 qualified applicants were turned away, in large part because nursing schools didn't have enough professors. says nurses comprise the oldest workforce in the nation, and many of them kept working during the recession. They are going to leave in droves andare already leaving in some places where the economy is getting better."

*** Thus adding more evidence that those groups are not on the side of nurses. Plus it looks like they are buying into thier own propaganda. Always a bad sign.

One of the only valid reason I have ever heard for BSN only entry to RN practice (didn' hear it here) is to actually make real the fake nursing shortage, thus increasing wages and other benifits for nurses. A least until a mass of BSN prepared RNs from the Phillipines, India, Africa and other countries can be imported.

Too many of what kind of nurses? ADN? Too many of what kind of nursing schools? ADN?

There's a difference in "shortage of nurses" and "shortage of faculty."

The main difference being a Master's degree. I have never, ever heard anybody say there is too much nursing faculty.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Too many of what kind of nurses? ADN? Too many of what kind of nursing schools? ADN?

There's a difference in "shortage of nurses" and "shortage of faculty."

The main difference being a Master's degree. I have never, ever heard anybody say there is too much nursing faculty.

What kind of nurses? RNs and LPNs. Not enough difference between ADN and BSN RNs to seperate them into different groups.

There isn't a shortage of either nurses or nursing faculty. Many open and unfilled positions for faculty is no indicator of a shorage. Plenty of graduate degree prepared nurses around but a lot of them don't wish to take the pay cut teaching would mean. I don't blame them. Plenty of RNs with MSNs and docorate degrees working as bedside RNs. All you have to do to get plenty of faculty is to pay them enough.

Specializes in Certified Med/Surg tele, and other stuff.
I think it's a shame after nurses have had to work so hard to be seen as a valuable member of the healthcare profession instead of "butt wipers" that nurses themselves would say something as ridiculous as, "I don't need a master's degree to wipe butts."

That's sad if you think you're a glorified butt wiper. Where do you work that they would even pay an RN to be a butt wiper? They must be hard up.

Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?

*** Every ICU I have ever worked in did primary nursing. There may or may not be CNAs in the unit. If there is there are helpers and don't bath or clean up patients by themselves, at least not in my experience. You have to cut Ntheboat2 a little slack s/he is either not a nurse or a brand new nurse and doesn't yet realize what the real nursing world is like.

Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?

Did you even read what I said?

When did I ever say anything even close to, "Nurses don't wipe butts."

I said it is sad if you think RN = butt wiper.

Out of all the things nurses do, butt wiping is near the bottom of the totem pole.

"Butt wiper" is typically how an uneducated non-nurse views a nurse.

Random person: "What did you go to school for?"

Nurse: "Oh, I went to school for nursing. I'm an RN."

Random person: "Oh, so you're a butt wiper."

Seriously? I think it's pitiful if a CNA even labels themselves as a butt wiper, but an RN saying "Who needs one of them there edumications to wipe ace?!" is just ignorant and doesn't help the misconception that nurses are just "overpaid butt wipers."

*** Every ICU I have ever worked in did primary nursing. There may or may not be CNAs in the unit. If there is there are helpers and don't bath or clean up patients by themselves, at least not in my experience. You have to cut Ntheboat2 a little slack s/he is either not a nurse or a brand new nurse and doesn't yet realize what the real nursing world is like.

You're the one that has to be excused because you're so intent on having an ADN/BSN debate that you can't think clearly about the topic at hand.

There are "too many RNs" but there are definitely NOT too many nurses with master's degrees. That's why there's a faculty shortage that's going to get worse. It probably has to do with the fact that the pay is horrible and you can get paid more to work at the bedside without a master's.

It's cute that you got offended for being called out on your false claims of having a BSN just to help out your argument so now you want to say, "Ntheboat doesn't know anything" blah blah blah.

I took a pay cut to become a CNA just so I could "wipe butts" and make sure nursing is what I wanted to do. I'm an expert butt wiper, but when someone asks what I do, wiping butts has NEVER been at the top of the list even when I did it several times a day!

Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?[/quote

An even better question is, why do you wait for the CNA to be cut to wipe them?

Specializes in Certified Med/Surg tele, and other stuff.
Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?[/quote

An even better question is, why do you wait for the CNA to be cut to wipe them?

Honey, I have wiping hineys since I was 17 yrs old. Never turned away from one yet. I work very hard, so don't assume.

I'm simply responding to what you wrote, which is part of this quote:That's sad if you think you're a glorified butt wiper. Where do you work that they would even pay an RN to be a butt wiper? They must be hard up.

Are you not implying that YOU don't wipe them? You must not work in a hospital, because nurses wipe'm all the time.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
I think it's a shame after nurses have had to work so hard to be seen as a valuable member of the healthcare profession instead of "butt wipers" that nurses themselves would say something as ridiculous as, "I don't need a master's degree to wipe butts."

That's sad if you think you're a glorified butt wiper. Where do you work that they would even pay an RN to be a butt wiper? They must be hard up.

Why is that ridiculous? Do I need a masters degree to wipe butts? I was unaware.

There are plenty of tasks done by a nurse that are not required to be done by a nurse, all day long. Where do YOU work that you do not know this? Total patient care = nurse wipes butts. Among other things. Even if I do happen to work with techs, I prefer not to trust the skin assessment of unlicensed personnel and look at the butt myself. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.

Right now, for example, they have backed off current nursing shortage for the most part and are running around attempting to scare people about the coming epic catastrophe shortage that's supposed to arrive around 2020. It was scheduled to arrive in 2010 but then they discovered several hundred thousand young female nurses graduating between 2005 and 2009 they hadn't noticed before.

I laughed so hard at this paragraph that I was incontinent of bladder. Where can I find a masters educated nurse to utilize a barrier wipe and get me some clean drawers? (Oh and to do it for the wages of a mid-entry level sales professional?) I trust none of you undereducated peons with my nether regions.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
I'm curious what you think the difference is? BSN program English dept prereq requirement is typically limited to just Eng 101, ASN programs also require Eng 101, what's the difference?

I wonder about the quality of colleges these folks went to, if they think spelling and grammar are the measure of an institution of higher learning.

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