A Different Approach to the ADN vs. BSN Debate - page 8

Over and over again, we read the same things on these threads. Pay BSN's more at the bedside, and mandate a BSN for all entry level nurses. There is widespread assumption that a BSN mandate would... Read More

  1. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from somethingaboutmary
    I looked over our board newsletter and that was correct at that time. Now our Missouri board has changed the way the boards are being written. They now focus more on management and prioritizing care than they do diseases process. So prior to this change our ADN School had 98% board pass rates. After this change occurred our board rate decreased.
    I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood something: there is no "State board" exam; the NCLEX-RN is a national licensing exam. That means that the exact same testing material (randomly chosen from the databank) is used in every State.

    There is no such thing as a "Missouri board", so it's not possible that this non-existent board changed anything for the NCLEX in your particular State. While there IS a Missouri State Board of Nursing (as there is for every State), they have no control over the content of the questions given for the NCLEX in your State. The one I take in NY is the same testing material that is used in WI, MO, etc.

    If there was a change in the passage rates of any particular school, it had to do with how they were addressing their curriculum compared to the material being tested on the NCLEX.
  2. by   RNsRWe
    whoops, double post
  3. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from somethingaboutmary
    ADN prepared nurses traditional do have a lot of bedside skills and BSN seem to get a lot of management tools.
    I think you're falling into a stereotype here, and one that seems to be categorically wrong. It's been shown time and again that while there may be a school exception here or there that has clinical requirements far above the norm, in reality, ADN and BSN students get about the same amount of actual clinical time. Now and then you'll see someone post about how their ADN or their BSN program had TONS more clinical time than the other guy but for the most part, the programs both feature about the same requirements to sit for the same NCLEX-RN.
  4. by   Woodenpug
    "Do you really want every nurse to qualify for the jobs that only you qualify for now?"
    Yes! though I have a few months to graduation. One problem with a mixed force is that BSN's are sometimes "cared for" by ADN's who can then remind the supervisor/ manager that a favor is due. Some, few managers never really acquire bedside skills. They are often out of touch with the realities "in the trenches." Of course, mandating BSN entry level will cause more harm than good. And overall ADN and BSN are both adequate preparation for entry level into nursing.
  5. by   Tweety
    Quote from RNsRWe
    I think you're falling into a stereotype here, and one that seems to be categorically wrong. It's been shown time and again that while there may be a school exception here or there that has clinical requirements far above the norm, in reality, ADN and BSN students get about the same amount of actual clinical time. Now and then you'll see someone post about how their ADN or their BSN program had TONS more clinical time than the other guy but for the most part, the programs both feature about the same requirements to sit for the same NCLEX-RN.


    I agree. I precept the BSN students in the program here weekly. (They do a preceptor thingie rather than the group thing with the instructor present.) I am very familiar with their program. They get the same number of clinical hours as the ADN students, and their program is geared towards producing beginning bedside nurses and passing NCLEX (they had the highest pass rate in the state year before last) not producing managers. They take one course in Leadership/Management.
  6. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I think it's really important to refrain from stereotyping when we debate the BSN/ADN and diploma routes of entry to professional nursing. Thanks.
  7. by   S.N. Visit
    Quote from Tweety
    I agree. I precept the BSN students in the program here weekly. (They do a preceptor thingie rather than the group thing with the instructor present.) I am very familiar with their program. They get the same number of clinical hours as the ADN students, and their program is geared towards producing beginning bedside nurses and passing NCLEX (they had the highest pass rate in the state year before last) not producing managers. They take one course in Leadership/Management.

    Off topic.....I'm in an ADN program...We also have preceptorship (96 hours ), and we have to take the Nursing Seminar class (Leadership and management).
    Probably d/t the NCLEX changes i suspect.
  8. by   Tweety
    Quote from Tanzanite
    Off topic.....I'm in an ADN program...We also have preceptorship (96 hours ), and we have to take the Nursing Seminar class (Leadership and management).
    Probably d/t the NCLEX changes i suspect.
    Interesting. It was built into our ADN but not a separate course or very detailed. Again, ADN programs are moving more towards a BSN type ciriculum and not awarding the degree.
  9. by   somethingaboutmary
    I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood something: there is no "State board" exam; the NCLEX-RN is a national licensing exam. That means that the exact same testing material (randomly chosen from the databank) is used in every State.

    There is no such thing as a "Missouri board", so it's not possible that this non-existent board changed
    anything for the NCLEX in your particular State. While there IS a Missouri State Board of Nursing (as there is for every State), they have no control over the content of the questions given for the NCLEX in your State. The one I take in NY is the same testing material that is used in WI, MO, etc.

    If there was a change in the passage rates of any particular school, it had to do with how they were addressing their curriculum compared to the material being tested on the NCLEX.

    In response to the above post:
    Your right I am sorry. I meant to say the NCLEX, however for some reason put the State Board. I do realize it is the NCLEX, thanks for the clarification. I am not sure the hint of sarcasm was necessary, knowledge is greatly appreciated. My point was that mandating a BSN may not occur anytime soon, but steps are being made to create ADN programs to incorporate BSN material or to alleviate ADN students from passing the NCLEX. I have been gettin all my information ready for the Missouri State Boards in order to be able to take the NC-CLEX Unless you took the boards two years in a row you may not realize that. This is something we discussed in out Med Surg II class and again are discussing this in our newly added Nursing Issues as a direct reflection of this change. Our instructor doesn't believe that a BSN mandate is possible right now with the current shortage, but she stated there are other ways to accomplish this BSN requirement. For example the NCLEX change. I am new to this site. I hope not everyone carries the same derogatory response as you did. Must say it makes me hesitant to respond. I gain so much from everyone’s opinion so I shared what little experience I have in regard to the subject!
    Last edit by somethingaboutmary on Mar 11, '07 : Reason: Add Quote
  10. by   somethingaboutmary
    [
    Last edit by somethingaboutmary on Mar 11, '07
  11. by   somethingaboutmary
    Quote from RNsRWe
    I think you're falling into a stereotype here, and one that seems to be categorically wrong. It's been shown time and again that while there may be a school exception here or there that has clinical requirements far above the norm, in reality, ADN and BSN students get about the same amount of actual clinical time. Now and then you'll see someone post about how their ADN or their BSN program had TONS more clinical time than the other guy but for the most part, the programs both feature about the same requirements to sit for the same NCLEX-RN.
    I am only speaking from what I have been exposed to. I did use traditional in referring to ADN programs which may have been a trigger for that response. I will graduate in May and comparing the clinical hours I have not done, but curriculum related to ADN and BSN there are several classes that are related to management. These classes may not have management in their title; however they are geared toward enhancing management skills within the nursing profession. Our school does a lot of observations and many times I have been there with a BSN student. We have discussed their program and they shared that their first two years are prerequisites and then their final two years are clinical. They do a lot of observations with management and get various types of clinical experience. The clinical that we have are bed side clinical. The observation's I have are related to different specialties. This nursing issues class is the first class where we actually have a practicum and we set up our own clinical, which consists of management positions. I do not mean to stereotype, I am really just sharing what I have been exposed to. I will pay closer attention to how I word my response. My posting is only to share. I can't even say I am green yet, I am just starting. One thing's for sure rather a RN has a BSN or ADN degree the person in the position truly makes the difference.
  12. by   somethingaboutmary
    My understanding is that each state has their own requirements in regard to the number of clinical/class hour requirements? Is that correct? Each school can go above but not below those requirements. For example my school added this Nursing Issues class, which is not required by the state, but in order to help students pass the NCLEX they added it. In the BSN program I applied for the entire program is online and I set up my own clinical's. The tests are taken at the University and that is the only time I am required to actually appear on campus. Has anyone obtained their BSN online and if so what did you think?
  13. by   Tweety
    Quote from somethingaboutmary
    I am only speaking from what I have been exposed to. I did use traditional in referring to ADN programs which may have been a trigger for that response. I will graduate in May and comparing the clinical hours I have not done, but curriculum related to ADN and BSN there are several classes that are related to management. These classes may not have management in their title; however they are geared toward enhancing management skills within the nursing profession. Our school does a lot of observations and many times I have been there with a BSN student. We have discussed their program and they shared that their first two years are prerequisites and then their final two years are clinical. They do a lot of observations with management and get various types of clinical experience. The clinical that we have are bed side clinical. The observation's I have are related to different specialties. This nursing issues class is the first class where we actually have a practicum and we set up our own clinical, which consists of management positions. I do not mean to stereotype, I am really just sharing what I have been exposed to. I will pay closer attention to how I word my response. My posting is only to share. I can't even say I am green yet, I am just starting. One thing's for sure rather a RN has a BSN or ADN degree the person in the position truly makes the difference.
    Your post was fine, if that's what it is like there.

    People, other than yourself. tend look at the surface and make a judgement about BSN programs. Yes, the BSN programs have courses in ethics, management, research, etc. But they still have fundamentals, med-surg, pysch., and ob and have clinicals in all these areas. Yes, they have clinicals in public health, management, doctors offices, but they also have many hours in the hospital learning the basics - how to pass meds, start IVs, etc. The nurse I precepted Wednesday had a clinical with me in med-surg and the next day had to give a presentation in a clinic. People tend to block out the many hours of med-surg and say "see, BSNs get no real clinical experience and not geared towards the bedside." Which is not true, which is why some of us were quick to get defensive and I apologize for that.

    (I'm also just as quick to defend those who stereotype ADN programs as just a two year program that doesn't stack up next to a BSN's. My opinion, for what is matters, is they both prepared nurses equally as entry level bedside nurses. ADN is not a two-year program, but the difference between an ADN and a BSN isn't just a few courses in management.)

    I realize it's different in different areas. I feel sorry for the BSNs in your area, because no one is going to hire them into management without bedside experience and it sounds like they aren't getting that training.
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 11, '07

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