Considering nursing

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2005

As a Claims processor for BC of CA, you should consider getting an AA in Health Information Management. Once you have an AA in HIM, you take the RHIT exam and become a registered health information tech. The pay is nearly comparable to that of an RN. With your foot already in the door at BC of CA you probably have a good chance of getting into other jobs there with an RHIT. Just a thought. Then, when you save money you can get a BS in HIM from Loma Linda and sit for the RHIA exam. RHIAs make really big bucks.

Have you considered applying to osteopathic medical schools? They are more willing to consider non-traditional students coming from all kinds of different backgrounds and ages.

There are two docs in my family and 30 years ago I was in school with many pre-med students. Competition is fierce in the math and science classes. You are aware that you need college physics and calculus, aren't you? Do you know the web sites to go to for information on getting into either an AMA or AOA medical school? Your MCAT scores must be high and they are sent directly to the medical schools you've flagged as the ones you want to go to at the time you take the MCAT. There is also the Medical School Application Service that handles most all the med school applications now. There is also an application service for the osteopathic schools. You should check out these web sites for information about the application process and medical school requirements.

Also, search these forums for some old posts I did regarding medical school for links and information.

Money is not a problem. Once you get a seat in a medical school class, they will see to it that you get your tuition through loans. My brother-in-law works for a large HMO which paid off his medical college loans.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2005

I tend to think decide what you want to do and set your course to do just that. You know that expression...follow your passion? Even if you ended up with (gasp!) a 3.2 GPA and couldn't get into med schools you could probably get in to an Osteopathic school. Or if you just want a degree in biology...this makes me think of a friend who has a BS in bio...she makes about 65k per year working for a pharm giant and she loves it.

Also, have you ever worked in actual patient care? I'd recommend doing that. Not an insignificant number of students pass out/gag/nearly die when they get to actual patient care and decide this isn't for them.

If you have a genuine interest in nursing I'd say go for it. If you see it as a weigh-station on the way to getting your MD...I'd say forget it.

Also, don't underestimate the vast difference between not having to study for those gen ed classes and what will be required of you when you get to the pre-reqs for nursing/or pre-med. I think some quite intelligent folks who never studied much knuckle down and seriously study when they hit Organic Chemistry and physics, etc.

Good luck to you with what you decide!

TheCommuter, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2005

Some people seriously underestimate the challenge that earning an associate degree in nursing will present. Please remember that virtually all students accepted into ADN programs have high GPAs (usually 4.0) and outstanding test scores. However, half of the students fail out within the first year.

When you get into the field of nursing, you must learn to think in an entirely different manner than ever before. When taking tests that have been administered by your nursing instructors, you are going to fail if you simply listen to the lectures, read the chapters, and take notes. In nursing school you must learn to think critically as well as utilize the skills of application and analysis in order to excel on your tests.

timster1984 · Dec 17, 2005

As a Claims processor for BC of CA, you should consider getting an AA in Health Information Management. Once you have an AA in HIM, you take the RHIT exam and become a registered health information tech. The pay is nearly comparable to that of an RN. With your foot already in the door at BC of CA you probably have a good chance of getting into other jobs there with an RHIT. Just a thought. Then, when you save money you can get a BS in HIM from Loma Linda and sit for the RHIA exam. RHIAs make really big bucks.
Have you considered applying to osteopathic medical schools? They are more willing to consider non-traditional students coming from all kinds of different backgrounds and ages.
There are two docs in my family and 30 years ago I was in school with many pre-med students. Competition is fierce in the math and science classes. You are aware that you need college physics and calculus, aren't you? Do you know the web sites to go to for information on getting into either an AMA or AOA medical school? Your MCAT scores must be high and they are sent directly to the medical schools you've flagged as the ones you want to go to at the time you take the MCAT. There is also the Medical School Application Service that handles most all the med school applications now. There is also an application service for the osteopathic schools. You should check out these web sites for information about the application process and medical school requirements.
Also, search these forums for some old posts I did regarding medical school for links and information.
Money is not a problem. Once you get a seat in a medical school class, they will see to it that you get your tuition through loans. My brother-in-law works for a large HMO which paid off his medical college loans.

Thanks for the info Day, that actually wasn't something I thought of. What do Health Information Management techs do exactly? I honestly have no idea what difference osteopathic medical schools are from regular ones, I thought there were just medical schools, didn't know they had specific ones. I'm aware I need to do physics and calculus, but I'm not really worried about the pre-med requirements like inorganic chem, organic chem, physics, or calculus because like I said, if I do need to study I'm more then happy to....while everyone else is out partying on the weekend I plan to be at home going over my work, I already have the partying out of my system.

To clarify about money, it's not the cost of going to med school since yeah once you're in that's irrelevant. My money concern stems from the fact that I can't do anything in practicing medicine in some capacity (which is what I want to do) with a biology degree outside being a doctor, so I'd pretty much have thirty to forty grand in loans from getting my bachelor and no way to repay it if the med schools decided to say no.

I appreciate the responses I've gotten so far. I guess I should clarify, it's not so much that I would be doing nursing as a stepping stone to get to med school, a nurse and a doctor both do the same thing (medicine) so I think either way I would be happy, I would just prefer to be a doctor since I specifically would like to be a surgeon.

It's nice to get in touch with people already in the healthcare profession in some capacity though, I've been browsing through the site and there's a great deal of information here for either pre-nursing or pre-medicine! One thing I read that I was already told about before is how some doctors treat their nurses poorly. I honestly don't understand how anyone in a profession could act so unprofessional, but I guess there's bad apples in everything. I'll look into the health information management thing, I'm not sure if the community college I'm going to offers it but I remember something like that. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

stpauligirl · Dec 17, 2005

Hey guys, new to the forum so I'll drop an introduction in that part of the forum when I get home from work since I'm half an hour away from that.
Basically, my situation is probably about the same as 95% of every other pre-medical student out there. Right now I'm just taking general ed courses before I transfer to a university, so obviously this is the perfect time to consider this. Anyways, I wasn't born rich and in fact I'm lucky to have a nice cushy job at Blue Shield of California, because if it wasn't for this I'd be totally screwed. Regardless though, I'm going to have to use financial aid to pay for school though when I start going to school full time, I want to take a full school load instead of just take 6 units and work a job because I don't feel like taking five million years to get through college.
I've heard a lot of the horror stories about people getting great grades in college, getting a bachelor degree in biology, letters of recommendations from doctors, good MCAT scores and all that and they still get rejected year after year for med school. You can't do that much with a bachelor in biology from what I see, and even if you can, I'm very aware that you can do nothing with it in health care which is where I want to be.
My question is, especially since most of the pre-reqs for an associate degree in nursing also are lower division courses for biology and/or are extremely relevant to pre-med anyways since nursing is also medicine, should I get an associate degree in nursing so I atleast have some way of surviving should I get a bachelor in biology and then the med schools say no?
Looking at the options, it seems to be an extremely wise way to do it in my opinion, because it looks like most RNs (especially entry level ones) work at night and since most college courses at the university level are offered during the day, that would allow me to work as a RN while going to school so I wouldn't even need financial aid. I also looked at it, and since you just need to meet certain science requirements to get into med school and have a bachelor degree in something, I also pondered getting a bachelor in nursing and then just doing the extra courses to meet the med school admissions requirements. I would assume that would look better to a med school anyways since someone who has a nursing degree knows a whole lot more about medicine and patient care then someone with a biology degree.
I'd like to get everyone's opinion on what they think of this, and since I'm sure it would be asked if I didn't say it, here's the relevant info about myself.
I'm 21, male (obviously, considering the thread it's in, lol), as far as study habits go I'd say I'm alright at studying but that's because I've never had to study. I just got done doing 13 units while working a full time job as a claims processor with a 4.0 GPA and I didn't study that much to get the 4.0 GPA, but that's only because it wasn't necessary, obviously since pre-med is what I'm looking at there's no lack of motivation here. Academics seems to come quite easy to me and while other people struggle and study long hours to get an A on the test I just spend an hour or two of light studying to get the A, so I'm not scholastically impaired. I write papers extremely easy, very attentive, I learn extremely fast and if the subject interests me (health care is one of the ones that does interest me) I have a good memory.
After taking general biology since I need it for general ed, I've developed a liking for biology, but I wouldn't want to do it as a career; it's just an interesting subject to me. My main reason for wanting to be a doctor is not so much the pay as the desire to be a professional, to save lives (or help do that), and to help people heal. From what I've read so far (plus what I already knew anyways from the general idea), nursing would offer all of that anyways, so maybe even after just getting an associate degree I may decide I like this better anyways, I dunno.
Sorry for the long essay but I figured questions would be asked about everything like motive, study habit, etc. anyways so I don't want to waste everyone's time! My main questions are in your opinion do you think it'd be wise for me to get an associate degree in nursing first so I'm not financially SOL if the med schools says no (if I just got a biology degree with no nursing, I'd have to use the full amount of loans probably so I'd be $30,000+ in debt), would it be wise to get a bachelor in nursing instead of biology if I do still want to be a doctor and just get the extra courses done, and finally, how much stereotyping and discrimination will I have to deal with in the classroom if I do enter the nursing program? I don't mind working with gay people (I'm straight myself) because generally, their more accepting and open minded anyways so I actually would probably like working with them, I'm very open minded myself, very respectful and integrity is a big thing to me...but I absolutely /hate/ being discriminated against or stereotyped, and I'm not very tolerant of that sort of thing, If I'm challenged I'd rather confront the issue or person then just idly take it or let the insult go unanswered.

The only thing I have to say is that it might be wise not to underestimate the "lower level Biology courses" for example A&P.......people in my class who had degrees in Biology dropped like dead flies with my professor :)

Good luck!

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2005

there are two kinds of medical doctors. the m.d. (medical doctor) and the d.o. (doctor of osteopathy). check your yellow pages and you will see both kinds listed under the physician headings.

here's some links for you to explore:

http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/start.htm - the site of the american medical association's american medical college application service - a link on the home page will take you to a complete listing of all the ama medical colleges in the u.s. who use this service for medical school applications.

http://www.aacom.org/home-applicants/ - the site of the american association of colleges of osteopathic medicine - follow the links to get information about osteopathic medical schools

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/start.htm - the home page for the mcat exam which all medical school applicants must take

what is now called health information management (him) is what used to be called medical records. due to computers, development of the electronic medical record and the growth of required reporting to medicare, him has burgeoned into one of the fastest growing healthcare professions. medical coding comes under this profession, but him personnel serve as birth certificate registrars, security and privacy officers (of medical information), medical staff office managers, and many, many other jobs in healthcare facilities. him personnel also design and develop the forms used by most healthcare facilities.

http://www.ahima.org/certification/ - the links on this page will take you to descriptions of the various registered and certification options offered by the american health information management association. you will find the answers to your questions about rhit and rhia in these pages.

don't let the venting about abusive behavior sway any decision you make about nursing. most doctors treat nurses very professionally and are very nice. as i said on another post recently, there are people who treat others badly in every walk of life. nursing/medicine don't have a market on it. also, remember that people are telling their worst stories about abuse because they are burned into their memory and were emotionally traumatic. no one ever forgets a loud, upsetting argument they got involved in. i daresay you, yourself, have had people speak nastily to you at one time or another for no apparent reason at all. it happens. that's life. you're not likely to hear about the majority of wonderful respectful nurse/doctor relationships because there is nothing sensational to say about them. people would much rather hear about the thrilling, lurid details of being yelled at or having a chart thrown at them. it doesn't happen all that often, but if it does, you never forget it. people wouldn't be staying in nursing as long as they do if this kind of stuff went on all the time.

**RosesrReder, BSN, MSN, RN** · Dec 18, 2005

Best wishes to you in whatever you decide. :)

stpauligirl · Dec 18, 2005

Some people seriously underestimate the challenge that earning an associate degree in nursing will present. Please remember that virtually all students accepted into ADN programs have high GPAs (usually 4.0) and outstanding test scores. However, half of the students fail out within the first year.
When you get into the field of nursing, you must learn to think in an entirely different manner than ever before. When taking tests that have been administered by your nursing instructors, you are going to fail if you simply listen to the lectures, read the chapters, and take notes. In nursing school you must learn to think critically as well as utilize the skills of application and analysis in order to excel on your tests.

Some people also underestimate the degree of difficulty in Community College Courses.....one student in my class had a Bachelor's of I don't remember what and boasted that he went to University XYZ.....he said that he thought classes at the Community College would be easier....little did he know how hard our professor would be. cheaper is not easier and sure enough he didn't get the grade he thought he would get. Taking prereqs for nursing, especially the science courses, is like you are on a different planet. Weedout after weedout class....then you get weeded out again in nursing school. Survival of the fittest?!?!

VeryPlainJane · Dec 18, 2005

Some people seriously underestimate the challenge that earning an associate degree in nursing will present. Please remember that virtually all students accepted into ADN programs have high GPAs (usually 4.0) and outstanding test scores. However, half of the students fail out within the first year.
When you get into the field of nursing, you must learn to think in an entirely different manner than ever before. When taking tests that have been administered by your nursing instructors, you are going to fail if you simply listen to the lectures, read the chapters, and take notes. In nursing school you must learn to think critically as well as utilize the skills of application and analysis in order to excel on your tests.

Why is that? In the Kansas City area it's very competitive to get into an ADN program..but University or Hospital is relatively easy. I know of one CC in my area (KCKCC) that it is easy to get in...if you live in the county..outside the county you better have a 4.0 or they will laugh you out of the building. I know a lot of students that drop out/or fail out of ADN programs and are picked up by my University ...it's like the University and/or Hospital programs are not that picky. The ADN's get the pick of the litter and we get the hand me downs.

This is my oppion...I have respect for all nurses CNA to PHD.

stpauligirl · Dec 18, 2005

Why is that? In the Kansas City area it's very competitive to get into an ADN program..but University or Hospital is relatively easy. I know of one CC in my area (KCKCC) that it is easy to get in...if you live in the county..outside the county you better have a 4.0 or they will laugh you out of the building. I know a lot of students that drop out/or fail out of ADN programs and are picked up by my University ...it's like the University and/or Hospital programs are not that picky. The ADN's get the pick of the litter and we get the hand me downs.
This is my oppion...I have respect for all nurses CNA to PHD.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems that it is easier to get accepted into a Community College. It's cheaper, too. At our school anybody can take a class like A&P, no prerequisite is required......they don't care if you need to take every possible remedial class if you scored low on the college entrance exam. Schools are funded by enrollment so the more people sign up for classes the more money the school gets. Our ADN nursing program ranks 6th in the state and if they would let anyone get into the program it wouldn't be good business for the school if too many failed the board exam. I believe that the effort to rigorously weed students out during the essential prerequs, for example Chem and A&P, almost guarantees that no duds get into the programs. I heard from many sources that the science and math classes are much harder at our school than for example at our local top University. To apply for the ADN program at our school you only need Engl Chem 1, A&P1 and a mathcompetency test with a adequate scores and whoooop you can apply!!!!! Like I said I could be wrong about this but being at that school, and encountering the way everything seems to be set up....the classes, the professors, the way classes are structured, taught, the expectations and the grading....makes me wonder if it is not intentionally set up to be hard to eliminate as many people as possible.

timster1984 · Dec 19, 2005

Maybe I am wrong but it seems that it is easier to get accepted into a Community College. It's cheaper, too. At our school anybody can take a class like A&P, no prerequisite is required......they don't care if you need to take every possible remedial class if you scored low on the college entrance exam. Schools are funded by enrollment so the more people sign up for classes the more money the school gets. Our ADN nursing program ranks 6th in the state and if they would let anyone get into the program it wouldn't be good business for the school if too many failed the board exam. I believe that the effort to rigorously weed students out during the essential prerequs, for example Chem and A&P, almost guarantees that no duds get into the programs. I heard from many sources that the science and math classes are much harder at our school than for example at our local top University. To apply for the ADN program at our school you only need Engl Chem 1, A&P1 and a mathcompetency test with a adequate scores and whoooop you can apply!!!!! Like I said I could be wrong about this but being at that school, and encountering the way everything seems to be set up....the classes, the professors, the way classes are structured, taught, the expectations and the grading....makes me wonder if it is not intentionally set up to be hard to eliminate as many people as possible.

Well, I can't speak from personal experience about every community college being easier then the universities but honestly, I don't think it matters where it is, it's entirely up to the teacher. If the teacher sucks, the class is going to suck. If the teacher's great, the class is a breeze. It's all relative anyways, everyone in my biology class thought it was really hard (only about four, me being one of them, got an A out of fifty students) but I thought it was pretty easy. One person may think something's hard that another thinks is easy and vise versa...I'd much rather take a science class any day of the week instead of say a history class.

I did look up health information management and the closest my college offers is medical office specialist, so I guess that's out since that degree is just a combination of medical billing and transcription, one of which I already know more of then alot of medical billers out there, seeing as the geniuses send me claims constantly with such stuff as the diagnosis and date of injury missing so they can't be processed. If this insults anyone, it's not my intention (not sure if anyone here is a medical biller), but you learn a lot about where the people who got terminated from fast food end up if you do medical claims processing. :)

I guess I'm just going to go with focusing solely on pre-med, I would prefer to get a degree in something else as well just as a cushion but after looking at how the government distributes financial aid (basically, if you're already working full time, you get nothing), I don't really see it as an option anyhow. What's the main difference between an associate degree and bachelor degree in nursing though? Are the first two years of a bachelor degree in nursing basically the same as an associate degree? I plan to go to CSU Chico, and the CSU system is very interchangeable with classes. If I get a degree in biology and I didn't get into med school right away, then I might as well start working towards a bachelor in nursing if the first two years are the same as the coursework in an associate because all the stuff like general ed, american institutions, all the extra course junk is out of the way. :)